Getting Back Up After a Failure
^^ We cover a wide variety of art fails - from Kickstarter woes, to shipping troubles, to listening to people who gave bad advice. Doug Hoppes, Iris Compiet, A.M.Sartor, and Crystal Smith all share how they recovered when something didn’t go right.
Hi friends, Sarah D here.
This is the transcribed conversation made via HappyScribe (it’s after the show notes).
We know some people like to read more than listen and vice versa, and we will always try to provide both when we can. HappyScribe is roughly 80% accurate.
Also a huge thanks to our guests:
Doug Hoppes
ShadowMyths • Instagram • Twitter
Iris Compiet
Website • Instagram • Patreon
A.M.Sartor
Website • Patreon • Twitter • Instagram
Crystal Smith
Illustration work • Wildlife and Other Artwork • Instagram • Facebook • Facebook Again
Happy Art Making!
-Sarah
Interview with Doug Hoppes, Iris Compiet, A.M.Sartor, and Crystal Smith
Speaker 1 (00:00)
Hey, folks, this is Sarah and Sarah from Mindbodyartist.com, the podcast where we're talking about the mental and physical game, about being an artist. And today we have a really great roundtable chat discussion about getting back up after a failure. And today we have Amanda, Crystal, Doug and Eris with us. And they're going to be joining in the discussion and sharing their experiences. But first, I'd like them all to introduce themselves and tell everyone where they can be found online, followed, supported and whatnot. So, Amanda, if you don't mind starting this off?
Speaker 5 (00:41)
Hi, I'm Amanda Sartor. I'm an illustrator and narrative designer, and I do a lot of illustration for games and books. And you can find my work@amstarter.com and you can support me on Patreon Comancarter. And that's me.
Speaker 4 (01:12)
Hello, I'm Crystal Crystal Smith.
Speaker 6 (01:15)
And I am a freelance illustrator. I have a kids book coming out next fall. I'm working on graphic novels. I also do wildlife artwork, environmental artwork, and moonlight as a writer. You can find me@crystalsmith.net for my illustrationwork or heycrystalsmith.com, for my wildlife artwork.
Speaker 1 (01:48)
All right. And Doug, where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (01:52)
Hey, guys, I'm Doug. I'm the creator of the Shadow Myth decks. The decks are used by Oracle Tarot readers. They're also used by DND gamers and their dark art, fantasy illustrations, oil paintings. You can find my stuff and my writings over at Shadowmiths Shadowmyths.com.
(02:16)
Awesome.
Speaker 4 (02:16)
Thank you. I'm an artist and illustrator of Runs and Netherlands primarily use traditional media, anything from oils, watercolors, even sculpting. I'm the creator of Ferries of the Fault Lines, worked on the Crystal BC the Labyrinth B series coming out in June. And yeah, I do pretty much whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. So I'm a bit of a dark horse perhaps, but yeah, that's me. Awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:51)
Thank you so much. So, like I mentioned today, we're going to be doing a talk about getting back up after you've had a failure. And each one of these people have volunteered to share their experiences. So we'll probably go through each one and everyone will share what happened to them, and then we might have a discussion to follow. So I guess to get the ball rolling, though, we're going to have my co host, Sarah Ford, start off with, I guess, her first the failure story that she wants to talk about.
Speaker 2 (03:23)
Yeah. So mine is probably a familiar story because I'm sure a lot of new creators have done this. But my first Kickstarter, when I set it up, I decided that I was going to roll shipping into the price of the tier. So I thought it would be easier for people to not have the add on because at the time it was kind of like the way Kickstarter was set up. You kind of got, like surprised with the shipping add on when you went to commit. I guess it's still kind of like that. But at least now people are used to it. They know they're going to pay shipping. At the time, I was like, oh, I'm just going to roll it all in. So I did all the calculations, figured it all out. This is how much it'll cost. It'll be fine. And then what happened was the book ended up being over a pound. And I had originally estimated everything to ship first class, but because it couldn't ship first class, it all had to go priority because it was over a pound. So my shipping cost tripled.
Speaker 4 (04:19)
Oh, no.
Speaker 2 (04:22)
So what happened was the project lost money, right? So in the end, I was going to be spending more to make the books and ship them than I had taken in. So it was a loss. Quote, it would have been a loss. So what I did after freaking out was I just ordered more books. Like, I just summed my own money into running a bigger print and then just continued to sell the books afterwards. So that when I had sold all the books, I will have broken even. Now you hear me say when I sell all the books? Because even though it's been, I think, five or six years, I still have some. So if anybody needs a Magical Girl coloring book.
Speaker 6 (05:07)
You can go to Georgiabased.com.
Speaker 2 (05:10)
I think there's like 30 or 40 left. So we're getting there. So that was the thing. It was just a miscalculation. I didn't realize that the book was going to be that heavy. There was nothing I could do about it. I didn't feel right going back to my customers and being like, just kidding. Everyone give me an extra $5 for shipping. So I just ate it. And it's so funny because the Kickstarter theoretically did well from an outside perspective. It looked good. And people would say, oh, Congratulations, great job. It was such a wonderful project. We're so proud of you. And in my head I'm thinking, oh, my God, you guys have no idea how much I screwed up. So part of it was just kind of like, yeah, I freaked out about it, but just being able to figure out what to do and kind of going with the flow and kind of being like, yeah, I screwed up, but I played it off like it was a total success. Now everybody will know. But I've told people before, no, that was actually really bad. I really messed that up. But I did. I learned so much for it being like, my first Kickstarter, valuable lessons learned by Fire.
Speaker 2 (06:21)
And every Kickstarter since then has been profitable and successful. Yeah, that was my screw up, man.
Speaker 1 (06:31)
There's like, so much that you can learn too. Like you were saying from that one. That's such a harsh way to learn. But there's a lot of opportunity for growth after someday.
Speaker 2 (06:42)
I still have the opportunity for it to have eventually been at least broken even.
Speaker 3 (06:50)
Sure you use nowadays using like Shippo or pirate ship or anything.
Speaker 2 (07:02)
I use pirate ship now. I used to use PayPal.
Speaker 3 (07:05)
Yeah. Because you saved significant amount of money on shipping.
Speaker 2 (07:08)
Yeah, the commercial shipping I love pirate ship is great. I think at the time I was still using PayPal, the rates are the same, if not super similar. But I always think it's really funny how people are like, oh, Sarah, when are you going to do a second coloring book? You said you were going to do a volume two. Are you going to still do that? And I'm like, I don't know if I'm emotionally ready yet.
Speaker 4 (07:33)
I recognize that one.
Speaker 2 (07:36)
Did you do something similar?
Speaker 4 (07:38)
Not something similar? Well, it was Kickstarter related. I just didn't think my Kickstarter would be a success. And I was like, I'll offer a free sketchy for 48 hours and. Yeah, that was a bit worse. I ended up doing over 700 sketches.
Speaker 2 (07:59)
You maybe should have limited that to the first hundred or something.
Speaker 5 (08:02)
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (08:05)
I didn't know it was that many. I thought it was like 300. It was $700.
Speaker 4 (08:11)
Yeah. It was a very successful Kickstarter, and I'm very, very grateful, and it was amazing. But I was sketching for two months straight and packing books, which was nice. But you get a little bit fed up after two months doing nothing from 07:00 in the morning till 11:00 in the evening, but packaging and sketching.
Speaker 2 (08:38)
And you're like, I don't even like when I have to do that for a week after a pin drop. So I can't even imagine too much.
(08:44)
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:47)
You go through it, you do it. But it's one of those things that I probably should have done that differently. Yeah, it's the same with shipping. It's just one of those things that you tend to gloss over. I think with shipping nowadays, shipping is so it's changing so rapidly. Usually there's one shipping cost change a year. And with Colville, we've had, like three or four. I wouldn't want to run a Kickstarter right now. With having to cover those shipping costs, it can kill you.
Speaker 3 (09:30)
The shipping costs aren't too bad. The biggest problem I'm running with the Kickstarter is I ran last year. Okay, look, my Kickstarters are small. I only ask for like, 800. I usually only get five or 6000. So they're nothing compared to, like, yours. I just you guys stuff, so they're tiny. So I usually get mine fulfilled within a weekend. But the hardest part I've actually found was certain countries are now blocking certain imports. Like, I've got some playing card Kickstarters from November, and I still can't send them to Australia because Australia is not taking any USPS tracking.
Speaker 2 (10:06)
I got a tip for you on that.
Speaker 3 (10:10)
Really?
Speaker 2 (10:10)
Yeah. If you're using pirate ship, you can use the simple export rate and it will go through with tracking.
Speaker 3 (10:18)
Okay. I'm using Bill shipping.
Speaker 2 (10:20)
Okay, well, it might be worth you just making a pirate Ship account just to get the simple export rate and get those Australian packages out. Because I haven't stopped shipping to Australia.
Speaker 3 (10:29)
I've got like three of them you can go through and use. What do you call it?
Speaker 1 (10:40)
The higher stuff, ups and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (10:43)
I'm like, yeah. No, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (10:45)
No. The simple export rate is cheaper and Pirate Ship has no fees. There's no reason for you to not just make those three packages and send them.
Speaker 1 (10:53)
Pirateship is super easy to set up, too. Like, you can set up your Pirate Ship account in like ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (10:59)
Less than probably.
Speaker 1 (11:00)
Yeah, ten minutes, I guess if you're taking your time and having a copy.
Speaker 3 (11:04)
Yeah, having those online shipping things. And I also have a Rolo printer.
Speaker 2 (11:10)
Yes. Oh, my God, it's the best.
Speaker 3 (11:13)
Those made my last Kickstarter. Like I said, mine are small, so I have 150 orders, but I usually have about 20 to 30 orders. No, I actually have about ten orders a week, but it really has saved me time and money.
Speaker 2 (11:27)
They're so fast. It's great investment I made recently.
Speaker 1 (11:34)
I think I might need to get one of those. They're expensive, though, aren't they? I think a couple of $100.
Speaker 2 (11:40)
They pay themselves back within like so fast. It's like two times by an ink. And that was the cost of the printer.
Speaker 3 (11:48)
Okay, mine is for my Rolo printer. It's a thermal.
Speaker 2 (11:53)
Yeah, mine is thermal, but that's what I'm saying. But I used to buy ink for my regular. I don't even remember the last time I bought ink.
Speaker 3 (12:01)
And the beauty about it is that when I go to Shippo, or in this case, you go in there like, international orders are great. Now, international order put the amount of weight on there, print it, prints right out the throw printer, pop it right onto the package. This is nice issue. Now, is the iOS codes for UK?
Speaker 2 (12:23)
Yeah, I've got a cheat sheet for those.
Speaker 3 (12:26)
I put mine in the notes. I just grabbed the iOS and you can put them in the Shippo notes field and it prints it right onto the label.
Speaker 2 (12:34)
Pirateship has a field for it, too.
(12:35)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:37)
We're going to need someone to go through and do show notes for this one, too.
Speaker 2 (12:40)
I can already.
Speaker 1 (12:41)
People are dropping resources left and right.
Speaker 2 (12:43)
Yeah. Do any of you guys have terrible Kickstarter fails or are we just going to move on to the next story?
Speaker 3 (12:51)
Oh, I've got a wide or not terrible Kickstarter sales just failing all the time. They fail all the time. Literally none of my Kickstarters worked until I dropped. I always get the request to do an art book, which I have about 110 paintings. And so I always get a request to do an art book. And I did that whole thing where you go overseas, you go overseas to get the books printed, you do all that stuff. And then I'm like, all right, this is great. I'm all excited. And I posted on there, and I got a couple of people to share. Like I said, I don't have a huge following or anything like that. People share. And you've got $300 on Kickstarter. Like, this is not good. And it's depressing watching that in every case for, like, 15 days. I'm like, oh, this is depressing. So nowadays I just do Kickstarter for, like, six or $800, and on average, I usually pull out about five to $6,000 on them. Like, you know what? I'm not going to make a living off of them, but at least it's product. At least I can do the stuff. So you did the marketing, you paid for the marketing.
Speaker 3 (14:06)
I lost a bunch of money. You pay for the marketing, you pay for all the stuff. Paid for the latest. Yet none of that worked.
Speaker 6 (14:14)
Yeah, I had a patron. What was the Indiegogo same thing when I was in school? I don't know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. It was an art book. It was a little bit art nouveau. And, yeah, I sold three. It was not good, but I still funded it because I really made the call super low.
Speaker 1 (14:42)
It's really hard when you try and do something like that and you get, like, two people then, thank you, Depressing.
Speaker 6 (14:50)
One of them was like, someone I knew. And you're like, oh, thanks.
Speaker 2 (14:54)
It's like your best friend and your grandmother.
Speaker 1 (14:55)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:02)
You won't look at it.
Speaker 6 (15:04)
Yeah. I'm like, okay, that's it. Never do that again.
(15:07)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:07)
That's why when people are like, When's volume two of the coloring book, I'm like, Guys, I'm still emotionally distraught.
Speaker 3 (15:15)
The jealousy kicks in too, because you're like, okay, all my friends are doing, like, 50,000, 100,000 Kickstarter. I can only do 300. What the heck?
Speaker 6 (15:26)
Yeah, you go on Kickstarter and see all these ones getting funded where you're just like, how are people funding this?
Speaker 4 (15:32)
I don't understand. It's why I'm afraid to do another one. To be honest, I'm like, what if it blocked? I mean, I had that feeling for the first one. It's like, this is never going to work. This is never going to happen. And maybe I'll sell 300 books. That would be great. I'll have 500 printed. I'll have 200 to sell throughout the years. Same thing as you, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (15:58)
Just throw those, cuttering them out.
Speaker 4 (16:01)
Yeah. And then it did really, really well. I don't understand. And now I'm like, oh, if I do this again and it flops, that's all I'm going to fail. This is going to be a failure. So, yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1 (16:22)
Honestly, I don't think if you do the Kickstarter, it would flop.
Speaker 2 (16:33)
You can't control how you feel about it, though. It's just always going to sit there.
Speaker 4 (16:36)
Yeah, this is who I am. It's like I'm always thinking, nobody is wanting to see this.
Speaker 1 (16:45)
Who cares where?
Speaker 3 (16:47)
It's like, half the world wants to buy your stuff as it is, so it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1 (16:52)
I'm pretty sure you'd be all right.
Speaker 2 (16:54)
Brains are so dumb, though. They're just like, they don't care. They don't care how successful or how great your last thing was. They're just like, no, you could suck, though. Like, you could wake up tomorrow and suck.
Speaker 1 (17:04)
Oh, God, I do that every single time I design something new. Every single time, it'll be like, yeah, but maybe overnight you forgot how to make creatures just entirely. That's not realistic.
(17:17)
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:18)
Don't get OK. I mean, don't think one successful Kickstarter or several successful Kickstarter make you a really good artist or a really successful one. That's just not how it works. You need to have a good.
Speaker 1 (17:34)
Right. You need to have a good product.
Speaker 2 (17:36)
Let's do another story from someone. Who are we doing next?
Speaker 1 (17:40)
We were going to do alphabetical, so it would be Amanda who goes next. What was that? Or we could switch off if you don't feel comfortable going right now.
Speaker 5 (17:54)
No, it's okay. I might as well get it over with.
Speaker 2 (17:59)
This is a karthesis. We're trying to remove the pain.
Speaker 5 (18:05)
Peel the bandaid off quick.
Speaker 1 (18:06)
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:12)
So I've never done a Kickstarter, so that's why I wasn't really saying anything. I learned a lot from listening to that, but I don't have any failures to speak of in that realm, thankfully, because it sounds expensive. But I've had a long career with a lot of changes, and a lot of those changes have been sort of triggered by what you could call failure. So picking one distinct incident that I could encapsulate into a story is a little hard, but I guess I could talk about rejection in, like, client rejection.
Speaker 1 (19:05)
Totally. That's a big one. I always get bummed out for what I would consider to be way too long when I face any sort of rejection. So I'd love to know how you handle and come back from getting rejected.
Speaker 5 (19:19)
Okay, so one that was really painful was I've been working with a client for a couple of years, and it was a larger client, and I got kind of complacent because I was getting a lot of work from them, and they rejected a card at the sketch phase for quality reasons. It wasn't like the job got canceled or anything. And I tried to mitigate with the art director. I tried to redo the sketch, and they were completely ignoring me. It was really awful. Yeah, that was really frustrating. But it did kind of trigger me to go look for other clients and try to find actually higher paying work because I realized that the emotional trauma that I was dealing with from this client was not worth the amount of money they were paying me. So that kind of got added into my costs from then on out.
Speaker 6 (20:40)
How painful will you be?
Speaker 2 (20:42)
For me.
Speaker 5 (20:47)
In the long term, it was probably a good thing, but immediately afterwards it was so hard because I went through all the stages of grief, separated from a client that I've been with for a while and having a lot of problems with insecurity because I felt like I failed the job. But also, you don't really know what's going on with your clients. Trying to second guess why they rejected a painting is pointless because if they won't tell you, if they won't talk to you or give you clarification, it could be anything. It could be that something was actually going wrong with the job and they didn't want to cancel or that they just decided they wanted to go a different direction with it. There's a lot of different things that could be. When I saw the work that they replaced it with, I didn't think it was better than my work, so it was very frustrating. Yeah. And just watching that whole process, you know what it gave me a thicker skin, which is never something you really want to develop, but you eventually do.
Speaker 1 (22:16)
Definitely.
Speaker 5 (22:18)
Yeah. It made me realize that I needed to get better work and better clients.
Speaker 1 (22:30)
Did you get another person that you like working with or how's things going after the fact?
Speaker 5 (22:36)
Well, this was a while ago.
Speaker 1 (22:38)
So I've had a lot of clients that's good.
Speaker 5 (22:43)
But I enjoy working the most with after that, I kind of didn't want to work with a big company that much anymore because I felt like I got lost a little bit in their bureaucracy, working with individuals, self publishers, working on my own projects, and just occasionally taking larger companies when it was something I really wanted to do, worked out better for me. And the work is more satisfying. I mean, a lot of you do self derived projects, so you know that work is more satisfying typically, than the work you do for other people. Not always, but it's harder because you're kind of your own worst critic. But, yeah, just finding satisfaction in your work outside of other people's approval is really important.
Speaker 1 (23:55)
That is awesome. I think pretty much everyone here can speak to what you were just saying, too. With me, I had some trouble. I had a really difficult art director I was dealing with and still am dealing with. But this year I was just like, I will definitely make more time to work on my personal project just because my heart needed that to be happy. Like I was saying, it's so difficult to work with sometimes. So I'm like, okay, you have to have so many hours a week that you're just making art for yourself. And of course, they're still paying the bills with this other large client. But yeah, definitely. But anyone else. Can anyone else speak to what Amanda was saying? Or if anyone wanted to add something.
Speaker 2 (24:38)
Definitely feel free to jump in the rejection stories.
Speaker 4 (24:47)
I definitely recognize what Amanda is saying. It's so easy to take that rejection in any which way it comes personal. That's what I do. I just recently finished a client project that I didn't get a feel for what the client wanted. They didn't really know what they wanted and didn't get feedback on sketches, didn't get anything. And it was just lingering on. And I felt like I was just working in the dark, working blind. And it cut me so deep in the sense that I was just trying. I didn't know what I was doing. I was second guessing everything I did. And it's not the first time I've done any of this, but it's so difficult when the relationship between the client and yourself is for some reason weird or difficult. If it doesn't flow, it makes it so difficult. And like Amanda says, the money you get isn't worth the trouble and the sleepless nights you sometimes have or the nightmares, even I've had nightmares over it. And, I mean, I just finished it. Took a week off just to recuperate and just to do my own stuff, because I was pretty much done. I was like, Nope, this is not me.
Speaker 4 (26:18)
This is not what I want to do. And I don't think it's a failure of us, but your brain seems to do a thing where it sees this as a failure. And that's what my brain kept telling me. It's like, you're failing, you're failing, you're failing. And it takes so much of my energy to keep pushing back and saying, no, it's not my problem. This is clients problem. This is their problem. It's not my problem. I'm doing what I do. But yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 6 (26:53)
That's really tough. I had that experience, too, where I was trying to get some work with freelance work with a publisher. And in the end, they're like, And I'm still not sure if I like this or not, but they told me they're like, okay, it came down to you and one other person. And you know what? We just decided to go with the other person. And I was like, well, I don't know if you should have told me that, because if I didn't know if it was like there was a wide range of Ellen, I almost got it. No, that felt a lot worse than just having that blanket statement. Sorry, we've gone in a different direction or whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:34)
So that's funny for me. I would have liked to have known that.
Speaker 5 (27:38)
I would have been like.
Speaker 1 (27:39)
Oh, I came in second place. That's better than coming in 12th place, though. I would have been like, yeah, not 12th place.
Speaker 3 (27:49)
This is why I don't do freelance work anymore. I did it for a while and stuff like that. I hate I got so many other things going on. I hate the feeling you get something done. You're like, this is pretty cool. You send it in and it's three or four days and you haven't heard a thing. You're like, oh, no, this is just like, my brain automatically goes, negative spot. They're not going to like it. I was doing a job for Funimation and did the first painting, and our director liked it. And he says, I got to send it out to the producer. I'm like, all right. And next thing I know, he says, we need to talk to you on the phone. I'm like, oh, no. I've got a short deadline of, like, two weeks to do these two large paintings. I don't want to talk about this is going to cost me too much stress. But it was great because he says, oh, no, we love it. We just like you to record the process for the second painting. I'm like, okay, I could do that. But still, it's just doing freelance work. The amount of stress that causes me when they don't quite it's not quite what they want or trying to figure it all out.
Speaker 3 (29:01)
I don't have time for that. And it's just money for me. I've already got my day job, my product lines, and everything like that. I don't need the freelance work. It's just too stressful.
Speaker 1 (29:14)
Yes.
Speaker 6 (29:15)
Always trying to win a contest, just every single time. But you're trying to do it so you can eat.
Speaker 1 (29:23)
That's the best way to describe it.
Speaker 2 (29:26)
You're like, okay, I know the rules. Or at least I thought I knew the rules. The rules apparently changed, but I still need to win.
(29:34)
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:35)
And the prizes, my utilities get paid.
Speaker 2 (29:41)
I am also at the like, I don't really need to take custom or work for clients level now, which, like, I got to say, it is very tempting to be like, I will no longer be doing these.
Speaker 1 (29:58)
You know, it's funny. I think I'm moving in that direction. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I'm like, man, I could just make my own monsters and just not make monsters for other people. But what are you thinking about the going completely independent because you take a lot of commissions and you do your own stuff.
Speaker 4 (30:20)
I really take a lot of commissions, to be honest. Last year I was very busy, obviously, with stuff for Netflix and stuff. But there's some of these projects that get thrown in your lap and you're like, okay, never thought about that. Let's try it. Let's see if I like it. And that's basically how I take on things. It's like, oh, do I like this? Yeah, I like this. This is kind of a cherry on a cake. And this is some whipped cream and some chocolate sauce. It's fun projects.
Speaker 1 (30:56)
So you're really selective?
Speaker 4 (30:58)
Yeah, I'm really selective. And I love doing magic cards. I've never been able to play the game. I've always bought the cards because of the images. I was like, oh, this is cool. And I love doing the cards because the briefs are so different from my own work that I have to think outside of my comfort zone, and then I extend my own abilities as an artist. So by doing client work, I have to step out of that comfort zone I'm in, and I can use all that, all the knowledge I'm learning into putting into my own world.
Speaker 2 (31:45)
That's about the only reason I still do it, because clients come to me with designs that I never would do on my own.
Speaker 4 (31:51)
Exactly. And it just feeds me for some reason. And it's fun. Plus, you're not saying no to being offered to do work on Dark Crystal or the Labyrinth. You're not saying no to that you do.
Speaker 1 (32:07)
It fair.
Speaker 4 (32:10)
Everyone saying that they won't take that job is just lying. Sorry. I can say that I've worked on these projects, and it helps for visibility for my own world. That's how it works. I'm an artist who's worked on Dark Crystal, and I've got my fairies of the fold lines, and people come to the fairies of the fault lines because they've seen my book for the Dark Crystal, and otherwise they would never know about me.
Speaker 5 (32:56)
I was doing magic cards last year, and one of them finally came out.
Speaker 4 (33:01)
It's beautiful, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (33:02)
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (33:03)
Yours are gorgeous, too. I love the one you've got for auction right now. It's so pretty.
Speaker 4 (33:12)
Nobody wants to buy it, though.
Speaker 5 (33:16)
It's gorgeous. I don't mind.
Speaker 4 (33:18)
I love some of these cards are just you want to keep them yourselves because you make sure. But you were saying.
Speaker 5 (33:25)
Oh, sorry. Yeah. It's like just having your work attached to a known IP like that gets so much attention. Like, every time that happens, there's, like, this big bump in people who notice my work, which is both satisfying and frustrating. I've got all these other projects going on that are interesting, that are my own creation, but it's the magic work. That work has been satisfying, and they're a good client. It's been nice to work for. But like you said, it definitely brings in new influences to your work. And there's some work you just can't say no to, something that you really admire. Although there's a lot to be said to how nice they are to work with. If I got work for Labyrinths or anything like that, and the client was awful, I still wouldn't want to do it.
Speaker 4 (34:38)
But you only know if the client is awful.
Speaker 5 (34:45)
Never again.
Speaker 2 (34:47)
Like I said, we're playing this game, but we only kind of know the rules, and we only sort of know what's going on, and we just want to pay the bills.
Speaker 4 (34:59)
Listening. It's best to listen to your gut. I mean, you'll know, if there's any red flags when you're offered a job or if things just don't go as planned. Like that previous client job I talked about, that's a definite no. Not like this ever again. No, not happening. I don't care how much money they throw at me. Not worth it.
Speaker 3 (35:27)
So working for Magic is pretty nice. I'd like to work for that someday.
Speaker 2 (35:30)
It's great.
Speaker 4 (35:32)
I love them in the sense that I love the brief. It's so different from what I usually do. And the art directors are great to work with. I've never had a problem with the art directors. They're very enthusiastic and they've always let me do my thing, which is great because my work is so different from what we know from magic. Like what I know from magic, and it's good. I never thought my work would be a fit, and apparently it is.
Speaker 5 (36:08)
I'm riding that wave. That's what I thought too, when they contacted me.
Speaker 4 (36:13)
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:15)
Are you sure you know who I am? I don't know how this fits in with your style guide, but they're like, no, we totally want you to work on this. Okay.
Speaker 3 (36:27)
Did you just do the normal Rd drop for them?
Speaker 4 (36:30)
No, I was off.
Speaker 5 (36:36)
I'd worked on Ad and D fourth edition, like, such a long time ago, and I live in Seattle, so I just kind of know some people sort of run into people. But I didn't do the Art Trap. They contacted me. But it's not like I didn't already have contacts there.
Speaker 3 (37:00)
Maybe I'll just try them. Who knows?
Speaker 4 (37:02)
All of a sudden.
Speaker 6 (37:04)
Doug, for some reason, I remember seeing some art and being like, oh, wow, he's doing magic cards.
Speaker 3 (37:12)
Literally everybody at GenCon asked me, oh, you work for magic? I'm like, no, literally everybody always does.
Speaker 2 (37:20)
You're manifesting here. Come on, guys.
Speaker 1 (37:22)
Yeah, you should definitely do the drop, though, because if the fans are saying.
Speaker 3 (37:28)
Like, you look like you've done it never got a response from them. I'm like, you know what? Ever. It would be nice to work for them someday, but it really is one of the things where, yeah, my art doesn't fit any of what they're currently doing.
Speaker 4 (37:44)
Yeah, but you don't know what they're doing now because usually it takes a year and a half, maybe two years, even for a new set to drop. So please do send in and keep sending in, because not hearing is not a no, it's just not now.
Speaker 3 (38:05)
True. My wife says that I don't want to do freelance. Just like I said, it's too stressful or anything like that. Unless, of course, Wizards called me. Yeah, I'll do some magic cards. Okay. What if Guerrilla called you? And like, yes, I'll do work for Garemo.
Speaker 1 (38:22)
Sure.
Speaker 2 (38:25)
And like we were saying, when you do these things, it can bring more attention to your other stuff. And then you're sitting over there going, I have enough work right now, though. I'm so busy.
Speaker 3 (38:35)
I really have too many things going on between my books and all my other stuff and all my own product lines. But yeah, I would definitely make time for Garamo and for Wizards to work for them.
Speaker 1 (38:47)
So my policy on Star Wars, like, if I ever get to make a Star Wars monster. I'd be like, do you want some blood, too? I'll give you blood as well.
Speaker 2 (38:54)
Like my own blood, you mean?
Speaker 1 (38:56)
Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 6 (38:58)
No problem.
Speaker 3 (38:58)
Yeah, I ended up turning down some of that stuff. They had one of those companies where you can do license, Star Wars art and everything like that. They want me to do like three or four. They wanted Vader in my style and stuff like that. And then I just remember doing my Gallery days where like, no, I do like, two or three paintings for them and do one for myself. And it's like, do I really want to? Like I said, it's always just distraught every way because I'm 56 and I always tell people, yeah, I'll be dead in 30 years. It's like, what do I want to do for my last 30 years? Do I really want to do on anybody else's IP? No, not really. So Star Wars me is not big enough of a draw. Gum, of course, would be. Yeah. I'll spend time doing stuff for him.
Speaker 2 (39:45)
Yes, I will accept a Commission from Naoko Takichuchi to make a Sailor Moon.
Speaker 1 (39:52)
She needs something that just happens to come across.
Speaker 6 (39:58)
Oh, God, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (39:59)
I hope this all comes to be everyone.
Speaker 2 (40:03)
Yes, we're manifesting our dreams here.
Speaker 1 (40:05)
Do we want to be.
Speaker 4 (40:09)
One of one of my things, please?
Speaker 6 (40:12)
Sure.
Speaker 4 (40:13)
When we're manifesting things, I'm like, I want to get in on Jim Hanson company and let's do offerings with a fortnight thingy.
Speaker 5 (40:24)
There you go.
Speaker 1 (40:28)
See, now, that's a good one. That is a good one.
Speaker 4 (40:31)
I mean, Green Bake, right? It's never going to happen, but you never know.
Speaker 1 (40:36)
Who knows? All right, so we want to maybe move on to a Crystal story and see what happened to you.
Speaker 6 (40:42)
You know what happened to me. I don't have anything super traumatic, but I did decide a few years ago I was going to do some text message stickers. Do you ever know?
Speaker 1 (40:58)
Yeah, kind of like Giphy.
Speaker 6 (41:01)
But for, like, iOS to come in and they have animated gifts and cool things like that. I was like, I can do that. I'm going to do that. Make a fortune? Not so much. I made these cool stickers. I really loved them. The whole set was like these midnight knots, and it was like saying Goodnight to each other and things like that. And then I realized, okay, now I have to get it up on the Apple App Store, which is just insane, like the requirements and the technical specs. And then you have to become a developer. So you have to pay a fee to get in and get your stuff up on the store. It took forever. It took a couple of months just to get after that was done, just to get it up on the store. It got rejected, like eight or nine times for stupid little technical things. You can't use this word, your pixels or this or that or whatever. And finally I got it up. I was so excited it was there. And you didn't sell at all. You pay to be a developer for a year with Apple. And I think in the year, I think I made back what I paid to be a developer.
Speaker 6 (42:19)
That was about it. And it was inexperienced. And throughout the year they constantly are making changes to their agreements or this or that, and you constantly have to re upload and edit. And it was like, is it worth it just to keep it up here? And I just wanted to push through and do it for a year. And yeah, it didn't really pay off there at all. It was just too technical and whatnot. But I was glad I did it. I don't know if it was necessarily a failure so much because it was just by the end of it, I realized it wasn't something I really liked doing.
Speaker 2 (42:55)
It was an emotional failure.
(42:57)
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:58)
It was more like you're so excited and it's finally up and then there's stupid app search engine is so bad that no one could even find it. Like even when you looked for it, you could barely find it. So it wasn't like anyone was seeing it. It didn't work out the way I hoped it had. But I do like the artwork that I did for it, and it was a good experience. And I think I just realized that's not something I want to do again, especially because what do people pay? It's like a dollar, $99, right. To get it, and you have to sell a lot of them in order to make any money on that. And when you're trying to do advertising and marketing and things for that, how can you market something, especially when it's such a price is so small? You're making like, maybe I don't even know, $0.50 off of that. How are you supposed to market that with any kind of efficacy, pay per click or whatever on Instagram? Because your return is just so small. It just didn't work out. That is a good experience.
Speaker 1 (44:06)
That's good to know. I never even really looked into that, but it sounds like it's a pretty hard game to play. It is.
Speaker 6 (44:13)
I think if you had a huge platform, you had a huge audience already, then that's fine because you can promote it through that instead of through the App Store or through Apple. And you already got the built in audience who are going to go out and want to buy these. But I don't have that. So when I'm putting it up on Instagram, it's Woohoo crickets.
Speaker 3 (44:38)
That's one of the things where a lot of people don't realize when you're doing business stuff like that is you need to do the marketing. It's going to cost you for the advertising.
Speaker 6 (44:48)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:49)
Hey, guess what? I sold 300. I sold, say, 1000 units. That's cool. If your price is so low. Like, at $2 apart, your advertising is going way overshoot anything you would have made on it. I see this. People with shows of Comic Con, stuff like that, they'll sell these things for $5 a piece. Like, oh, this is great. I'm making a lot of sales. I'm like, yeah, but you're barely breaking even. And then you're making sure that you have to do a show where you have a huge footprint of people. Otherwise you're not going to break even.
Speaker 6 (45:25)
Yeah, it's true. My day job has been in marketing for the last 15 years, and the costs involved in it are so high. The reason it sometimes works, though, for artists especially, is simply because if you can get your own Instagram platform or social media platform or Enews, where you have a huge audience, then your advertising is almost nothing because you already have that. You put it up on Facebook or social media or whatnot, and lots of people see it. But if you don't have that, you're going to get into a lot of costs just to try and get it out there. And even just the cost of going to a Comic Con. Right? And having the booth and everything that's marketing costs.
Speaker 3 (46:09)
Yes. I spent tons of money over the years on advertising and a bunch of other stuff. And I realized one day going like, you know what? No, this is just throwing money. When you go and sell on Amazon, stuff like that, you can do all their Amazon advertising. So I'm realizing I'm not really making that much money. After I pay for the advertising, I got rid of it and I was still making the same amount of money without their advertising costs. I'm like, all right, fine, at least I'm not doing great. But I'm still gaining more money than feeding into the advertising system.
Speaker 6 (46:39)
No, it's true. And like places like Amazon and Etsy and stuff, that's really where they try and get you, right, to pay for all the ads and things. But if you don't keep track of how much you're actually spending on it versus how much you're making, you can end up not making anything.
Speaker 3 (46:54)
And then everybody's charging really low price to make sure that people buy it. It's like, okay. And then they toss free shipping on there going, oh, you're losing money on every one of your sales now.
Speaker 6 (47:06)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:09)
I think that's some of the saddest math I've ever had to do. I'll be like, man, I want to offer this thing at my table. And then I'm like, okay, well, you got to Mark that up for taxes and you got to Mark that up for shipping and you got to Mark that up. And then I'll be like, oh, God damn it, I need to sell this tiny little thing for like $15. No one's going to buy that.
Speaker 6 (47:34)
No, it's true. I find that at ComicCon, too. When I go, I've never done a booth, but not yet. But I see people selling things like stickers or little pins or things, and that's almost all they have at their booth. And I'm thinking, wow, what did they make any money back on? That the markup. Yeah.
(47:53)
Volume.
Speaker 6 (47:53)
Because, I mean, making more than $0.50 on each of those.
Speaker 2 (47:58)
I sold really cheap, inexpensive key chains that I hand assembled. So I would buy the parts, make the little prints, put the little prints, push the little plastic pieces together because it costs me $0.22 to make each one of those. I can sell them for $2.
Speaker 6 (48:18)
Nice.
Speaker 2 (48:18)
Do you know how many kids at Con have $2 sitting in their pocket? And they're like, oh, my God, look, it's an axolotl. I need one for me and one for my sister and one for my cousin. For me, it was like, yeah, I wasn't making very much money, but because they were so inexpensive, I did them for so long. And then eventually I was like, I don't want to do these anymore. I physically do not want to put these together. So it became like it wasn't worth it because I had progressed past the desire of the manual labor.
Speaker 3 (48:50)
Plus, you think about it, it's like, okay, say you're doing a $2 to make $1,000, you have to sell 500 of them.
Speaker 2 (48:58)
Right?
Speaker 3 (48:59)
Which means if you don't have 500, but it's also taking around, like, the cheapest thing I offer in my booth is $20, because if I need to, the amount of time it takes me to interact with people, I'm doing all these $5 things to interact with people. I'm losing other people who won't come up to my booth and pay me the $$20 to $40.
Speaker 4 (49:19)
Which means at conventions like this, I'm not doing that math.
Speaker 1 (49:27)
That's fair. The math sometimes is super sad to do. I was interested.
Speaker 6 (49:33)
Do you count your Comic Con experiences, like having boots and stuff, as, okay, maybe I didn't make a ton of money, but it was marketing, networking, marketing lead to basically whatever you make is kind of gravy because you're just getting your name and your artwork out there for people.
Speaker 2 (49:50)
Conventions is how I built up my client base. So I don't need to do cons level. If I hadn't done cons for.
Speaker 4 (49:59)
Like, ten years, I have to fly from the Netherlands to be so let me tell you, I never break. Like, I maybe break even or even.
Speaker 2 (50:12)
It's like a social thing or a networking thing.
Speaker 4 (50:15)
Yeah, it's a social thing, and it's a network thing. And I've discovered in the five or six years I've been doing this that people in the USA are directors and people who potentially could offer me client jobs. They want to see my face. They want to know who I am. They want to experience me, probably. And it has landed me jobs, but it took like a couple of years. So that was an investment in my future. But I do not wish to think about the money I spent on all of them because it cost me a lot of money. I don't think about products selling my products. Like I have a web shop and the only thing I do is would it be something I want to buy? And that's what I offer. I don't offer anything else.
Speaker 3 (51:17)
Iris, that's actually a really good point. So I always tell ours especially shows and stuff like that, what customers are buying, they're really buying the product, but they're also buying you buying the experience of coming, talking to you and stuff like that. I know like when I was doing Freelancing, I treated my booth as a large. My booth is a better than a portfolio. The reason why is because I have these big oil paintings. They're really bold and strike and they're oil paintings, which people love the look of oil paintings in real life. So I get the lights on so people can see my booth from far distance. So say like GenCon, my second year at GenCon I did like 6000 thousand $7 in sales, which was really good. Then I also got a gig for this one game company. I did like $20,000. I also made friends there and they referred me to other jobs and stuff like that. So it's all marketing for me more times than not nowadays it's more profit than marketing. I've been doing it for like probably about five years. So yeah, about five years for doing ComicCon. So I've gotten better at it.
Speaker 3 (52:30)
And I've also adjusted where I do like tattoo shows versus Comiccons and stuff like that.
(52:36)
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (52:37)
Imagine it's a bit of a cycle where you start off with you're just trying to get your name out there. It's all marketing. Hopefully you can break even and then as you get more well known, then you start making money at it or it starts getting you jobs or things like that. Theoretically that would be hopefully how it happens because people need to see you more than once a lot of times before they'll yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:58)
Because sorry, you're kind of still at the beginning of this, right? Because you were like, I'm going to start doing cons in 2020 is going to be my big year.
Speaker 1 (53:05)
Yes, that was the plan. Yeah. It was like I started my business at the end of 2016 and then I was like, okay, it took me a little while to figure out what I was even doing just at home and then I was like, okay, cool. I think it's time for me to start doing cons. So I did some investigation in 2018 and I was like, okay, 2019 is going to be my year to start doing cons, seriously. And Dodge got really sick, he got cancer. And so I was like, okay, 2020 is going to be my year to start doing Con. Seriously. Now it's 2022 and we're still working on that 2019 plan.
Speaker 3 (53:55)
I remember seeing you at a time. So you came up to my booth, hung up my booth a little bit.
Speaker 1 (53:58)
Yeah. That was my first Gen Con. That was one of my first reconnaissance cons, because I had actually never even been as, like, an attendee to a Con. So I was walking around, I had my little iPad, and I was walking around trying to get work. And then obviously, I was walking around trying to see how cons happen. Like, what even went on, what even was like having a booth, like, and stuff like that. You are super awesome. When I went to come talk to me, I learned so much. I was watching other people run their tables, and I was like, okay, cool. And then I was watching you run your table.
Speaker 5 (54:32)
And I was like.
Speaker 1 (54:32)
This dude's like a wizard. He can get anyone to buy from him.
Speaker 3 (54:38)
My table is usually pretty packed, John. It's not so much at Comiccons because they all want fan art, and I don't do fan art, but my other shows are much better.
Speaker 1 (54:50)
So to date, I've done, like, I don't know, two or three local conventions. And two, I did Monster Plaza in 2019, and I did Drag and Con in 2021. And that was a little Dragon.
Speaker 3 (55:04)
You did well at DragonCon.
(55:06)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:06)
What did you say?
Speaker 3 (55:07)
You did well at DragonCon?
Speaker 1 (55:08)
I did, yeah. We were really proud about that because it was our first time going there, and it was just me and Tom, and we did about comparable to some people who have done the show a few years. But I have to say, we really tried. Like, we tried so hard.
Speaker 2 (55:30)
She's looking forward to the day where she rolls into Con and she's just kind of like, yeah, I'm here. And then the people just, like, flock to her.
(55:36)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:37)
No, like, with me, I was like, Hi, I'm Sarah, and I'm going to be trying to be super engaging to you right now, and please buy my stuff and let's hope this is working for you. So we'll see. But also coming up, too, is one of the things I realized going at all the cons, as I really do want to refine down and do the Astrophysicist stuff exclusively. So it's like a unified look at the Con table. I think I've been really suffering. I noticed at first at the 2019 Dragon Monster Paloozer, I did. And my stuff didn't have, like, a message. It was just like, oh, a little bit of Cthulhu stuff and a little bit of Dragon stuff and a little bit of book stuff and a little bit of game stuff. And people would come up to my table, and that was like the first big Con I had ever done. And they were all super glassy eyed. They didn't even know what to look at or what to focus at. And so I was like, I need to refine the message at my table. And so that's what this year is going to be.
Speaker 1 (56:35)
So it's almost like I'm restarting, but at least I'm not restarting entirely because I've gotten better at selling some of the stuff on the table. So we'll see how it works out.
Speaker 6 (56:45)
That sounds great. That's the hardest thing to do, isn't it? Refined down to just one thing you're doing.
Speaker 1 (56:50)
Exactly. Because the Cthulhu stuff sells good because the Cthulhu has a following. But I only have so much that people have commissioned before. And then if you have three Cthulhu stuff and three Dragons and then some random creatures that aren't in any book and it gets confusing. So I just kind of want to be like, welcome to my table. I'm making astrofauna here's. All my monsters here's. The Astrophona book. It's like Spaceballs. It's like the Astrophonic Cup holder and the Astrophoto this and stuff like that. So it's where I'm hoping to go.
Speaker 2 (57:24)
Sarah, did you have any failure cons where you didn't make money?
Speaker 1 (57:30)
Oh, God, the worst one that ever happened to me. Do you remember the Black Friday Con that didn't happen?
(57:38)
Yes.
Speaker 1 (57:39)
Oh, it's so bad. So I got a tip from a friend and they're like, yeah, in Salem, Massachusetts. And that's like a huge thing. Like they have the sale in which trials and stuff like that. So there's this huge tradition of Halloween just being massive event in Salem mess. And there's like this whole organization that runs cons just constantly in the fall and they're like little pop up outdoor things. And so they wanted to start doing one on Black Friday. And I was like, great, cool. So I signed up, I filled out the paperwork and they just recycled all of the paperwork from these really massive October conventions that they do. And everything looked like really legit because they had just ported over all the stuff from the really legit October stuff. And so this is Black Friday. I show up at the parking lot of where they're supposed to be. There's no cars there. And I'm like, oh, no. So I called the person and they're like, Hi, yeah. So you're the only person who signed up. And I was like, excuse me, because yesterday was Thanksgiving and we're all kind of tired and hungover.
Speaker 1 (58:52)
We can't even let you said my shit needed to be set up for 09:00 A.m.. So I got up at 05:00 A.m., drove down, make sure I was all ready. They didn't even get to the site until noon. And then they're like, yeah. And we decided we were going to make this a night time Con that goes from five to 08:00 P.m.. So I was the only person that set up in this room. I woke up at 05:00 A.m.. Turns out the Con for this one didn't even start until 05:00 P.m. And then went for 3 hours aim for Sarah. So I was like, okay, I was like, my one goal is to make back the cost of the table. And it was like $100 or something like that. I worked so hard for that $100. I was tallying everything up. I'm like, okay, I made the cost of the table. I did that like, 15 minutes before I broke down. I drove home and I was like, oh, my God, the Mandalorian. I'm watching that. I just watched Baby Yoda until the pain went away. Yeah, it was pretty gnarly. And then they're like, hey, would you do this again next year?
Speaker 1 (01:00:04)
And I was like.
Speaker 5 (01:00:05)
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10)
So that was like the car that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14)
What's the next failure story we get?
Speaker 1 (01:00:16)
I think next up is Doug.
Speaker 3 (01:00:18)
Oh, okay. So I was going to talk about how I lost, like, probably six or $7,000 doing a Con, but doing prints like it. But I guess I'm better. My failure really ends up being the first seven years of my art career. Been doing now for probably like 15 years. So, yeah, the first half of my art career, absolute failure because it's simple. I just doing art for myself. And then my wife, Melissa, she goes, Stop giving your work away. Make somebody pay for it. A friend of mine, one of my pieces, I just don't like, sure, $75. She gave me the money. I'm like, oh, this is nice. I got paid for something. All right? So I said, you know what? We're going to start selling our site, all right? I'm going to do craft shows up New England, New England Comiccons and stuff like that. Weren't really big in the early 2000s, or at least I didn't notice any comic Con stuff like that. So I did the absolute biggest mistake for my entire half career. I sold things I thought people wanted to buy. I did the research. I knew landscapes were very popular.
Speaker 3 (01:01:39)
I started doing a whole bunch of landscape paintings. I knew that watercolors were popular, but then I moved to oils. So I started doing a bunch of oil escapes. I'm like, okay, great. Start doing selling them some of the galleries and stuff like that. And so I did that for probably seven years. I was pretty much following everything. I was like, okay, let's do freelance work. And then I was like, well, let me do some monster stuff, because I like monsters. Let me do some freelance work. So I started doing the listing of sending myself out to all these freelancers. Actually, sorry, that was after I did the landscape. So we moved to North Carolina. And my wife says I couldn't get into the galleries down here from Vermont. I'm like, all right, I can't get to the galleries. I'm having trouble landscapes. My arts. Like, you don't like landscapes. I mean, you don't love landscapes like you. I do because I did the plane air. I did all the studies, all the stuff. She's like, no, you like landscapes. Every time you send two or three paintings to the Gallery, you would do a monster painting for yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:02:40)
Just do that. I didn't know how to sell any of that stuff. So I went to my first Comic Con. I'm like, oh, this is really awesome. I had so much fun at the Comic Con. Just looking at all the artwork there and all the ideas. I'm like, oh, this is so much fun because I grew up on comic books and everything like that. All right, you're right. I want to do monsters. So that was my first change. My second change was, Now I want to be like everybody else. Let me do freelance work. So I started doing I went to IMC. I started learning how everybody did digital paintings for freelance. Started doing all the stuff. I started sending out all the stuff for freelance companies and everything like that and going like, and still doing some Comic Con. And after about three or four years of that, I'm like, no. So I've spent about ten to probably twelve years doing something I don't want to do. One day I woke up and I'm like, what do you want to do? You're 50 years old. Realistically. You lived about 75 to 85. What do you want to do?
Speaker 3 (01:03:45)
At that point, I'm like, you know what? I'm going to do my Shadow Miss. And I started telling stories with my paintings. And then I came up with the ideas for the cards. I'm like, I'm going to start doing my own stuff. So I realized I spent all this time doing what I thought everybody else thinks I should do, sell where I should sell, create the products I should do, do my painting. I did this thing where the one fantastic workshop. And I remember Peter Morbur. He looked at three of my paintings. He goes, they're all too dark. You're going to sell one? Maybe that's about it. Each person I'm like, you know what? At this point, though, I'd learned, you know what? I think you're wrong. So he saw me the first day at Jarrod Khan Jenkin, my very first Gen Khan in the art show. He comes by, sees me in, like, Saturday afternoon goes, how's it going? I'm like, I'm doing $7,000 so far in a day and a half. Like, what? Yeah, everybody wants it's not like they want dark art. I understood who my fans are understanding, who likes your work?
Speaker 3 (01:05:00)
That's the part I totally missed out. I was thinking, create a product that everybody likes. I realized that it turned into a generic type thing. I create products that I like. My fans have found me versus me finding the fans. That's my worst thing I ever did.
Speaker 2 (01:05:22)
That's like, I wasted a whole bunch of time, and now I'm shiny.
(01:05:29)
Shiny.
Speaker 6 (01:05:31)
You don't know what you like or what you want to do unless you do a lot of what you don't want to do.
Speaker 1 (01:05:37)
Definitely. I think I'm right there with you in the process of figuring out what I actually want to do, because initially when I went freelance, I was like, I want to make monsters. I want to get paid for it. And now I've been doing that for five years, and I'm like, I want to make my monsters, and I want to get paid for it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:57)
You know, I did one type of art for my ten year convention stint that I've been on and on about the whole time. That was a different type of art than what I do right now. So I did that ten years to go into cons. And when I gave up on doing that type of art and started doing a different type of art that I didn't dislike the type of art I was doing, I just burnt out on it. So once I kind of got over that and I needed to do something else, and I started doing what I was at the moment really passionate about that's when things took off for me. So I mean, we could, you know, we've had this conversation with almost every artist we've talked to.
Speaker 1 (01:06:32)
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:06:34)
It's scary when you don't think anybody will like your stuff. You got to have the belief that, oh grew it. I'm just going to do it.
Speaker 6 (01:06:44)
And sometimes it's like they say that people switch jobs a lot of times in their lives.
(01:06:49)
Right.
Speaker 6 (01:06:50)
It's not uncommon for people to switch careers and things. I think for artists, we're still artists, but we switch what kind of art we want to do or who we want to work for, what kind of jobs we want to take for a variety of reasons, whether that's we decide we don't like that art style, we don't want to do landscapes or we just hate dealing with freelance work. We don't want to deal with commissions or whatever. We also have those changes. It's just we always still remain artists.
Speaker 5 (01:07:20)
I've taken so much higher chance work at the beginning of my career. So I totally get that what you went through where you just wanted to make art and it didn't really matter what kind of art you are making. And it was sort of a people pleasing thing, and then kind of discovering that once you realize what you actually wanted to make, everything made a lot more sense and was a lot more satisfying. So all artists go through to a certain extent. But yeah, I definitely had that problem at the beginning of my career. What was that?
Speaker 3 (01:08:15)
The beauty about it is that I got the day job. Get done with the day job. You got, like, X number of hours at night. Like, do you want to spend that X number of hours at night doing something you really don't really want to do that much anymore?
Speaker 1 (01:08:28)
Yeah, that's a really good point. I also love how you're keeping your day job. Regardless, I would consider your freelance business very successful. And you're still keeping your day job, which I think is awesome for everyone listening to this because some people are like, I can't do it because of my day job, but you totally can't.
Speaker 3 (01:08:49)
My day job allows the biggest thing. My day job. Well, Besides having actually an actual income. I mean, look at this way. If I didn't have my day job when the pandemic hit, I'd be screwed with your cons mostly. Yeah, because the car went away. So I talked to a friend of mine I'm like, yeah, I was lost about 25, $30,000 in the last month and a half like, that's income coming into my business, but I need to buy my products and all my other stuff. I pay for my accountants and all my other things. Oh, but I look at this way is that a day job helps me focus, and it lets me experiment so I can go out there. And if I say, you know what? I really like to try this medium or this try this show, I can pony up the money to try it and not be afraid. Going, oh, going into the show going, hey, guess what? I have to make money at the show because I'm taking a risk, whereas that makes me much more comfortable to show, which gives me a better chance of succeeding at the new medium I'm trying or the new show I'm trying or the new whatever.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55)
Yeah. The multiple revenue income streams can happen even outside of day job versus freelance or whatever, too, because I've got the pose reference stuff and I've got my art. And since the pose reference stuff kind of took off, you know, two years ago or a year ago, it's let me be a lot more risky with the art side. I don't have to take pre orders for a new pin design. I can just have them manufactured and see how it goes.
Speaker 1 (01:10:25)
That's nice.
Speaker 2 (01:10:26)
And that's like the risk that would be ill advised otherwise. So being able to do that stuff because you've got this other source of money where you're not. I mean, for some people, that's a partner. Like, you have a partner that's working a full time job. So you can do the sort of risky side thing.
Speaker 1 (01:10:50)
That's basically how we rock and roll because there's, like three of us that pay the mortgage. So we're like where that force is combined. We're like one guy.
Speaker 2 (01:10:59)
Every once in a while, one of you can do something. Like, if you and Blue were suddenly killing it and Tom was like, I want to be a marine biologist, then he could take that risk.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10)
That's how it worked out. Like, in the very beginning, I was like, okay, I'm the breadwinner, I have the day job. I pack it everything. And I was like, everyone, eliminate your student debt. I was like, and if we have a rough month. There's no problem. My day job will cover it. And that's how it was. For the first seven or eight years I owned this place. And then everyone had gotten rid of their student debt, and Tom had just gotten a promotion at work. And it was kind of like my turn to take a turn.
Speaker 2 (01:11:41)
Yeah, I got turned to do the risk thing.
Speaker 1 (01:11:43)
Yeah. So that's when I went freelance, because he was like, okay, cool. I got rid of my student debt. I got a promotion at work. My paycheck can now cover everything if you have some bad times. So go and make your freelance business. But just to even get to that point, took us like seven or eight years, and now I guess I'm taking my turn. We do rotate around like Blue is planning on making she's my roommate who's a photographer. Anyone doesn't know, she's planning on completely revamping her pricing structure to hopefully up her, you know, up her earnings. And, yeah, sure, we can make that happen. We can help you in that bumpy road in term period.
Speaker 2 (01:12:28)
Finding those new clients that are at that bracket.
Speaker 3 (01:12:33)
That's the thing, because I had the day job and writing software for neuroscience company, stuff like that. Two and a half years ago, my wife was able to say, okay, I'm done with corporate world. All right? So she stopped doing she got laid off and she stopped doing the corporate world. Just do your dog tree business. So now she does a dog tree business. She has a nap. She can take naps every day at lunchtime. But the beauty about it is because she took out that she no longer has a corporate job. She can work on her own business with farmers market, stuff like that. It actually means I can now do more shows because now we don't have to coordinate. Who's going to watch the dogs? She's at work and I'm at the show, she can watch the dogs, which means now because of her doing that, she takes on a lot of the other stuff I would normally do around the house do shows, which means we now have more income coming in because of that freedom. It kind of works all out. Overall, I love when things work out.
Speaker 1 (01:13:29)
Right. That's awesome. So let's see, do we want to move on to ERISA's story?
Speaker 2 (01:13:36)
Oh, I can't wait to hear it.
Speaker 1 (01:13:37)
Yeah, well, you just heard it.
Speaker 6 (01:13:41)
Oh, no.
Speaker 2 (01:13:50)
You did your emotional, artistic wanderings until you got back to your heart.
Speaker 4 (01:13:55)
Yeah. Well, yeah, it's very similar to doctor story, actually, because I started and restarted my career several times and might still restart it again. You never know. But a couple of years ago, I completely, you know, lost any sense of love for art and didn't enjoy anything I was doing, fell out of love, and I just didn't have fun. And that was just 2016, I guess. Yeah. 2016 was the year I decided, like, okay, I'm done. I'm done trying. I'm done trying to fit in and do what is considered cool and is winning the prizes. And it's getting into annuals and everybody loves and raves about because I to try to fit in and do what the cool kids did. And I was so preoccupied with what I thought people wanted to see or what was trendy or hip or in that I completely forgot about why I was doing art in the first place. And I wasn't really enjoying any of it. And the art I made felt very mediocre, and it didn't fit me. I always compare it to trying on a size six jeans or whatever size is small, and then you actually have to have two sizes up.
Speaker 4 (01:15:46)
It's very uncomfortable if you walk in a size jeans. That way too small. And that was my entire career in the Netherlands. I was doing children's books and picture books and stuff like that. And it pays really, really, really bad. Like, honestly, I got 1500 euros for a picture book, which is about $2,000 for the entire picture book, all the images. And that was two, three months of work. It is brutal because you can do four a year, and that's it. And you'll have made, like, $8,000. That's it. So I was so frustrated. And my style, the things I loved, fantasy weren't the thing in the Netherlands. There weren't really publishers interested in it. They published a book series with a writer friend. We want prices here in the Netherlands. But the publisher just dropped us because bills were not up to scratch because they, like, doing marketing. But it was just so depressing. And then when I started looking towards the US as a possible market for me as a freelancer, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what my voice was. So I was pretty much doing whateverbody else was doing.
Speaker 4 (01:17:23)
And then in 2016, I was like, fuck it. I'm done. I'm done trying to fit in. I, too, worked a day job. I worked a day job for 16 years. And I was overworked, burnt out, had problems with my arm, couldn't do anything. And I hated doing art. And I was like, yeah, this is not what I want. This is not the road I want to travel. And I'm done trying to find a work in this. I have a good day job. I love my job. I'm a graphic designer. I'll do that and do on the side for me and just don't mess around with trying to make a freelance career or anything. And I wanted to go back to that childlike state of doing art for you and just for you and not care about what anybody else said. So didn't bother with likes on Instagram. And the moment I did, that the moment I decided that was the moment that my Instagram stamp started growing that everything just fell into place, and my ferries overflowed mine started to flow onto the page and stop giving a fuck about everything. Basically, everything started to grow.
Speaker 4 (01:18:52)
I decided to cut everything back and just like, fuck it, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not playing these games. And that's the moment. I was like, I embraced my failures. I embraced my I was no longer afraid of failing. I was like, I can't fail if I do work. That is, for me, that's my biggest failure. But it's also my biggest success in the sense that it showed me what I can do.
Speaker 2 (01:19:29)
Like a Phoenix rising from the fire of your ancient workers.
Speaker 4 (01:19:38)
And weird, to be honest, very weird. All of a sudden. All of a sudden, who's sending me a message on Twitter to say he loved my art. Can you imagine the level of screeching I did?
Speaker 1 (01:19:57)
That is wonderful.
Speaker 3 (01:19:59)
Just reading back, you know, this guy would like to work for you.
(01:20:03)
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:20:04)
A lot of people were telling me, oh, you need to tell him you want to work with him. I'm like, you know, he'll probably know that. I just sent him a message to say thank you and thank you so much for all the inspiration and amazing art you're putting out. I really appreciate it. And good luck with everything. And that's it.
Speaker 1 (01:20:25)
Well, we manifested you working for him today. So hopefully.
Speaker 2 (01:20:32)
Ernest, you have to go just check in and see how his new year's is going. Like, hey, how's the beginning of your year going? How are things?
Speaker 4 (01:20:41)
He did back my campaign for the Kickstarter. He even wrote a price quote for the edition that was published by a publisher.
Speaker 2 (01:20:57)
Beautiful things.
Speaker 5 (01:20:58)
We love to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:21:07)
So I have a question for all of you guys because everyone has kind of said similar things. Okay? So when you reach the point where you're like, screw it, I'm making my art. I'm making the art for me. Do you think there's some kind of, like, for lack of a better term, like more love that you put into it that other people pick up? Because that's happened to me, too, when I was just like, fuck this, I'm going to make monsters. People started to pay attention to my art a lot more than when I was making human characters I didn't care about.
Speaker 4 (01:21:35)
Yeah, that's how I feel about it. I think it's more of a genuine it's more you. There's something to the art that will appeal to people. It's all about being true. For me, that is. Yeah. I'm not sure. But for me, this is how it feels. It's more being genuine with yourself. And you're putting out I got to throw this in because.
Speaker 2 (01:22:08)
You know, there's going to be someone listening to this that says I am super passionate about my comic, my book, my project, my story, my whatever. And I throw myself into it and I do everything I'm supposed to do, but no one still is seeing it. So, you know, to just clarify that, yes, doing what you love and your passionate thing, getting success at that is so fulfilling and all that stuff, but it is possible to be doing it and still not hitting, not finding those people. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (01:22:39)
Yeah, definitely. What happened to me is probably a one in a million story in the sense that there's a lot of factors that played into this being a success. And it's not everybody, no matter how talented they are, no matter how hard they work, how passionate they are about their are, sometimes it just doesn't work and I don't know why. And I wish it would work for everybody, but always happen. And there's a certain segment of luck, perhaps in a certain segment of being at the right place at the right time. It's so easy to say you didn't work hard enough because that's not true. I don't believe that. But there's luck involved as well.
Speaker 5 (01:23:38)
What was that?
Speaker 3 (01:23:39)
There definitely is luck involved. But I would agree with Sarah Ford. It's kind of like it has nothing to do because people will go and do the stuff they don't like, but they're technically really good. They'll make these amazing things and people, it doesn't matter. People will love them. Aery, she's got fairies. People love fairies and love her work is really, really good. It's also you got to think of this terms, the amount of people who like that type of work, who like ferries, stuff like that, is a huge market. So when you blend, of course, there were people like Guerremon. Okay, now I forgot their names because I actually know them. That couple, they did the ferries before. What's your name?
Speaker 4 (01:24:36)
Brian and Wendy.
Speaker 5 (01:24:39)
How did you forget their name?
Speaker 3 (01:24:44)
Actually, I met both of them at IMC and I remember I was talking to Brian one time and Brian, he was trying to teach people at IMC the technique. That the same technique I do. You do random shapes, things come out of the shapes and you paint it. We had a great discussion about how he does his work too, and stuff like that. Yeah, there's such a nice couple. But also part of it is luck. But also part of it is you've got this huge market of people who love that type of work.
Speaker 4 (01:25:20)
I need to interject here because for me, I didn't start out doing ferries because of the market. Never, ever had been in my mind. And I think it's also important to know that might be a thing for some people to look at the market and see this is a big market. I'll do that, but it'll feel less genuine or it doesn't hit the right spot. For instance, Brian and Wendy do amazing. You feel it in the core. How do you say it's real?
Speaker 1 (01:26:07)
You know what?
Speaker 4 (01:26:08)
I mean.
Speaker 3 (01:26:09)
No, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant is what you love to do already has a huge market of what people love. My wife loves making dog treats. There's a huge market already. She didn't do it because of the market. She did it because we feed our dogs. These are all natural treats.
Speaker 2 (01:26:28)
So what happens is Sarah D is going to find the people who love that.
Speaker 1 (01:26:39)
Because Tara Whitlatch is like, my hero. So I kind of like the really creature style creatures, like the ones that are based in biology and anatomy and stuff like that is kind of who I'm trying. That's my tribe that I'm starting to find. I'm still working on it. We're gathering. We're getting there.
Speaker 3 (01:26:57)
What you see is you see there's these huge people that are very successful because what they love happens to coincide coincide with this market that already loves that type of work.
Speaker 2 (01:27:07)
I didn't know that's that people loved giant hair bows. This was not like a you did it.
Speaker 3 (01:27:14)
And you realize, Holy crap, this is a huge market.
Speaker 2 (01:27:17)
But I also think it's interesting how there's a lot of people who are like, I have never in my life as a grown human adult considered putting a giant fancy hair bow in my hair until I saw this one.
Speaker 1 (01:27:31)
So I'm converting.
(01:27:32)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:27:33)
You have the iPhone phenomenon happening. No one thought. No one was like, I don't want an iPhone. When they pitched it to their marketers, at first, they were like, that sounds stupid. And now I'm like, yeah, of course I have a smartphone. Everyone has a smartphone.
Speaker 2 (01:27:48)
Why don't you have a giant $80 hairbow on?
Speaker 4 (01:27:50)
Like, it's the thing also a little bit of luck.
Speaker 1 (01:27:55)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:27:56)
That's timing.
(01:27:57)
Maybe.
Speaker 4 (01:27:59)
Whatever you call it, it's that which you love to do. And it seems to hit the right note with people, and people see that, and it gets picked up with Imagine effects or who knows, it's online. It gets a viral tweet and you're off. And that happens sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:28:21)
I think it's also really important to mention, too, if people are listening to this and they're like, my passion is like my comic or my illustrations or whatever. This is like, a hard thing to say, but Eris and Doug are really good artists, so there's also a certain level of skill that you have to attain. Like, I've talked to some people, and they're like, 18 years old, and they're like, I'm so passionate about this comment I made, and no one wants it. And I was like.
Speaker 2 (01:28:51)
You need to draw it for ten years.
Speaker 1 (01:28:54)
You just need to draw it for ten more years. It's so hard to tell someone. Like, they're not there yet. I've had some people being like, why doesn't anyone care about this that I'm done.
Speaker 4 (01:29:07)
And I was like.
Speaker 1 (01:29:08)
It'S just kind of because it's not there yet. So I think it's also important, too, if you're like, I'm passionate about it, but why does no one care? You also have to do the self assessment of am I professional?
Speaker 2 (01:29:21)
And I know projects that are super professional, they care a ton about their thing. But if they haven't found those people yet, that's it. They just haven't got that spark where they connect with that market.
Speaker 1 (01:29:33)
You need those connections.
Speaker 2 (01:29:35)
It's like three things. It's like the passion, the connection and the skills.
Speaker 5 (01:29:43)
It takes a lot of bravery too, to put your work in front of people. I have so much trouble even posting my work online just because I was so nervous. Every time I do it. I'd like sweat. But as soon as I started doing it more often, I got a lot more attention and got a lot more clients. And it's just like pushing yourself into that kind of marketing is really hard, especially for artists who like to sit in their Studios and draw.
Speaker 2 (01:30:23)
The don't look at me, but look at me problem.
(01:30:26)
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:30:28)
I'm an extrovert. So theoretically I like attention, right? I want people to pay attention to me. I model in my underwear on the internet. Like, okay, that's who I am. But sometimes when I start getting a lot of attention for something, I'm like, oh, no, now you're all looking. Oh, everyone's got like a threshold.
Speaker 5 (01:30:49)
Yes. Like too much pressure all of a sudden.
Speaker 3 (01:30:52)
Yeah. I always tell artists like, you just got to be so good, you can't be ignored.
Speaker 2 (01:30:57)
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:31:01)
Sorry, go jumping. I just feel like this is something to where artists start to feel like if I'm not successful, it must be because I'm not good enough. And a lot of times it's not true. There's so many talented artists out there online that just haven't been found because the online world is so huge. And like we said, I'm really glad you mentioned that luck is a part of it, because it really is. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you're really unlucky, you're never going to get found.
Speaker 2 (01:31:28)
And then even if you don't believe in luck, it's just the circumstances. Yeah, I didn't expect to go from three or 5000 followers to 60,000 followers in like a week or two because of something stupid someone else did.
Speaker 1 (01:31:46)
Yeah, I didn't do that.
Speaker 6 (01:31:50)
So it's like you just never know when it wouldn't have worked if you hadn't already put the work in and been talented too. The luck part or circumstances, it doesn't work unless you already have the other foundations, talent, the skill, the practice, your own work out there that you really love to show. Then the luck pops in and suddenly it's like.
Speaker 1 (01:32:12)
Hey, what's that like a fire? You need to be ready to be lucky.
Speaker 6 (01:32:16)
Almost. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:32:17)
It's almost like when opportunity knocks, you have to be home. Yeah, exactly. You have to be ready to receive the luck.
Speaker 4 (01:32:26)
That's why it's so difficult to answer the questions I always get is people asking me, how do I get where you are?
Speaker 2 (01:32:33)
How did you build this?
Speaker 4 (01:32:36)
I don't know. I just went with the flow and just took on jobs and did my own thing. And then from one thing came the other, and I asked. I asked Brian if he wanted to write my intro for my book. I emailed him, you have to go out of your way sometimes and ask people if they are willing and able to help you here and there. And what's the worst that can happen is that it's scary, but they can say no, and I always am, but it always starts out as a maybe it could end up being a yes. So it's just asking people to, hey, would you be able to write an intro from my book? And when that happens, I got more of in a friend's song with Brian and Wendy that led to the Dark Crystal. So you never know. Even with Liama, I just asked him if he was able to write a blurb for my book, and he said yes. And his man is incredibly busy. Sometimes you have to change that luck a bit. And it's just, you know, what's the worst that can happen if they say no?
Speaker 2 (01:34:08)
I love listening to all these Iris, like, people look up to her, respect her, love her work. We've gotten friendly and chatty over the course of the last couple of months, and that's great. But it's like that idea that we all have idols, we all have people that we look up to and then realizing that they're all just like us, and they also have insecurities and people they look up to, and it's just like we're all the same damn people. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:34:35)
I believe that everybody is coming from the same space. We've all went through this. Whether somebody is working in this industry for 30 years or 40 years or whatever, done numerous films, they've all started where we are or where we began. They've probably hit all those failure moments and had these rejections by clients and stuff like that. So that's always good to keep in mind when you do these things. And, yeah, it's a tricky thing to say. Pinpoint what leads to success. And the only advice I can always give is just be the best you you can be and keep improving on your art. Keep looking at your art with different eyes and see where you need work and learn every day and just be open to changes and to screwing up failure. I mean, everybody here talks about their failures, but they're all lessons and ways to improve. So without failures, there wouldn't be success. Embrace them.
Speaker 2 (01:35:55)
Learning how to fall is such a big fall gracefully.
Speaker 4 (01:35:59)
Fail gracefully.
Speaker 1 (01:36:00)
I'm still learning that.
Speaker 2 (01:36:04)
If I knocked you over and literally dropped you on your ass, you would fall very well. I know this.
Speaker 5 (01:36:10)
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (01:36:15)
You need to just translate that to emotional, right?
Speaker 1 (01:36:18)
I did fall really bad on the ice yesterday, and not yesterday. The day before. I felt like I had a bad fall on the ice. But for whatever.
Speaker 2 (01:36:27)
You didn't hit your head?
(01:36:28)
No.
Speaker 1 (01:36:28)
But for whatever reason, all that years in karate kicked in. I did, like, the perfect Breakfall, and I got up and I was like, oh, my God, I didn't get hurt. I can't believe that. I haven't really done crowds seriously since College. I did it a little bit in 2020 again, like, over Zoom. But I'm not like some karate master. But my brain was just like, remember this? So you don't die right now.
Speaker 2 (01:36:53)
Yeah, that's what this whole episode is. It's like we screw up, we mess up, we learn from it, we figure new stuff out, and there are artists out there who they know this. You beat yourself up over this failure. What could I have done differently? How did I what? You know, it's all my fault. And this is the thing I missed up and blah, blah, blah. And then just like, the faster you can bounce from that. And what's the word when you go back and look at something and debrief yourself and be like, okay, yes, I screwed up. And look at it sort of analytically and try to remove your heartbreak a little and be like, these are the lessons now to continue.
Speaker 1 (01:37:34)
Okay, so I have a question for folks.
Speaker 3 (01:37:37)
Unfortunately, I picked the wrong lesson sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:37:41)
It's true. I have a question for everyone. Has anyone ever had someone in a position of authority that they looked up to tell them to stop making their art?
Speaker 5 (01:37:51)
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (01:37:56)
I quit for like, two weeks.
Speaker 1 (01:37:58)
Did you quit? You were like, done with being an artist for like.
Speaker 4 (01:38:00)
Two weeks.
Speaker 2 (01:38:05)
If you don't want to, but, yeah, tell the story.
Speaker 1 (01:38:08)
We can also edit if you're like. Yeah, we can edit.
Speaker 3 (01:38:11)
Not at all. I don't really care. Yeah. The number of times I've almost quit my art business in the first ten years when I was doing it is pretty much every year to every year and a half. It wouldn't do it. Then I'm like, all right. But two months later, I going. Okay. No, it was actually Greg Manchester. I was taking a smart school, and I was doing some stuff, and he was talking about how I should be doing this because I was doing the freelance, trying to do freelance stuff. I was just around doing some goofing around drawings and stuff like that. And it was fun. It was doing it. And he mentioned how I should be studying. I should be focusing on this, do this, this. And I'm like, really? So he says, yeah, if you want to be a freelance artist, you have to focus on this. You have to study this, you have to do all the other stuff. And I pretty much says, no, I don't want to do that. And because I already had a day job, didn't need, you know, I just started doing my freelance career and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:39:27)
This is what it means to do it. I don't want to do it. And it literally took all the fun out what I was doing. I couldn't sketch anymore. I couldn't draw anymore. Every time I draw and did something, I kept hearing his voice saying, you should be doing this. You should be studying this. Why is the hand not right? Do the hand drawing better, a bunch of other stuff. And I'm like, what? And then literally everything just went out. And I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I remember because I still had something. I actually even considered dropping out of the smart school class. And I had some more classes with him. And next week he was kind of like, you're not talking to his force, because I was done. I didn't want to do it anymore. And then eventually it's like, you know what? I wrote to him a letter. Look, this is the reality. Reality is I have a day job with a six figure income, I have wife, I have my family. I like to do an art and stuff like that. You know what? This is what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (01:40:28)
If this means I can't be a freelancer, I don't really care anymore. So it took me about two or three months after that, I just went through the rest class, did my assignments, because that's what I do. It took me about three or four months where I actually got back and started doing some more art. By the end of that year, I got better and I started. Everything was done. I was like, I understand. Yes, you want things more realistic. You want things to do this and this and that. In reality, what you think is successful life is not the same as I think is successful life. And then I just eventually I went back to doing art, probably like a year later. Yeah. So I just stopped. I was like, I'm done. This is not what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (01:41:19)
That was probably I really admired my second grade art teacher. And she's like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I'm like, I'm going to be an artist. And she's like, It's a waste of time. Don't do it. Do something better. And I was like, well, now I'm really going to be an artist. I will become an artist out of spite.
Speaker 4 (01:41:44)
I have the same thing with our University here in the Netherlands because fantasy is not art. So, yeah, I just didn't do any art in art school. Weirdly enough, I did graphic design, which is kind of art, and did my own thing on my own time. And I was like, you cannot tell me anything. And then my final year, I had to do my final exam I chose to illustrate an old version of Snow White and do a multimedia presentation of Snow White, and they were like, oh, man, that's fancy. We're not going to help you. And so they completely backed away. Didn't help me. I had to figure out everything from animation to sound recording to everything. And in the end, my final exam was I graduated with honors as the only one in my class, and I took the stage to get my diploma, and I turned my back to the audience and then to my teachers and just flip them like utter bastards. Do not tell me I can't do anything because I will show you my fire. I've been told that often, and whenever people tell me things that I can't do, I will do it if I like it.
Speaker 2 (01:43:33)
This has actually been the thing I've been struggling with. Like, when I meet new people or talk to new people or talk to old friends who I haven't talked to in a long time, and they're like, oh, so you're selling hair bows, so that's cute. How's that going for you? And it's so hard to just be, like, to go straight into, like, brag. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (01:43:56)
Brag away.
(01:43:58)
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (01:43:59)
It's not even bragging. It's telling the truth.
(01:44:03)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44:03)
I always find it hard to not just like, let me tell you about what my cute little bows do.
(01:44:10)
It.
Speaker 5 (01:44:12)
Doesn'T need an illustrator or an artist, like, trying to tell people that are not in the illustration industry or our industry. What you do is hard when you're.
Speaker 2 (01:44:23)
Like, at a party and they're like, oh, I'm a banker, oh, I'm a real estate agent. And you're like, oh, I'm an artist. And they're like, oh, cute.
Speaker 5 (01:44:31)
I don't know what they're picturing when they say that. It's like, what is your conceptualization of an artist?
Speaker 1 (01:44:39)
I always get asked if I do kids books. And I was like, no, there's more to art than just kids books.
Speaker 3 (01:44:46)
Whenever they always ask me that, I hand them my business card and they look at the skull and the thing like, oh, this is you. Yeah. Like, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:44:57)
Telling people what kind of art I do is very difficult because I do a lot of different stuff. And when I told people in the Netherlands that I was doing fantasy, they immediately went to fairies. And that was in a period of my life where I was like, no, I don't want to do ferries, because everybody expected me to do ferries. And I told him, no, I'm not going to draw fairies if their wings are being ripped off and they're being eaten and stuff like that. So it's tough to explain to people what I do. But with the pandemic, it's been easier because I just tell them, like, have you been watching Netflix a lot? Have you been watching Amazon Prime a lot? Have you been Disney plus all that Kind Jazz? Have you been reading a lot. Wow. Those are all done by artists.
Speaker 2 (01:45:53)
That's what I do.
Speaker 4 (01:45:57)
So the Panama has been really good. That way. You can really show them. Like, you wouldn't have survived any of these at home things without us, and that's good.
Speaker 2 (01:46:14)
Does that answer your question, Sarah?
Speaker 6 (01:46:17)
Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:46:18)
Did it happen to Amanda or Crystal? Did you guys ever run into that, like, having someone who was in a position, like, of authority or power or someone you admired, say, just cash it in, stop doing it.
Speaker 6 (01:46:31)
I never did.
Speaker 1 (01:46:32)
No.
Speaker 6 (01:46:34)
So far, just lots of support from people. So that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:46:39)
That's fantastic.
Speaker 5 (01:46:47)
I've had, like, tests rejected for jobs, which was very frustrating. But I have one funny story where my husband bought me a ticket to have this group dinner where you got to meet Alan Lee, which he's super sweet. So this is not that bad. But I was talking to him about my process, and at the time, I was working in the game industry, so I was working mostly digital, but I had been working in watercolors prior to that, and I was talking to him about how I was trying to recreate my watercolor paintings digitally. And at the time, digital software wasn't really what it is now. It was harder to do back then, but he was like, oh, no, you shouldn't do that. Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:47:48)
But for what reason was it like? Because you should explore the medium fresh.
Speaker 5 (01:47:55)
He work digitally at the time, too, because I knew he was working on concept stuff for The Lord of the Rings stuff, but I think he just didn't like trying to replicate watercolor digitally.
Speaker 2 (01:48:11)
I love when I look at a piece and I'm like, is it digital or traditional? I am not sure I like that feeling.
Speaker 5 (01:48:20)
Yeah. It's less controversial now than it was back then, but that's more just a funny story. It didn't really dissuade me.
Speaker 2 (01:48:30)
He probably wasn't like, don't do it or else.
Speaker 4 (01:48:33)
Yeah, he was really sweet.
Speaker 5 (01:48:35)
Otherwise. I think that was just his knee jerk reaction.
Speaker 2 (01:48:39)
He's fine at the time.
Speaker 5 (01:48:40)
Watercolors, obviously. So he was like.
Speaker 4 (01:48:43)
No, don't leave watercolors. Yeah. Use the real stuff. Use paper and pigment. So beautiful.
(01:48:58)
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:48:59)
There is something to be said for that. I mean, there are still things that traditional media do that just aren't as satisfying when you're working digitally.
Speaker 2 (01:49:08)
But it's really fun to be a traditional artist in the digital age because it almost feels like you're like a relic.
Speaker 5 (01:49:16)
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:49:17)
Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:49:20)
But you do get to be able to sell originals, which is nice. I work all digitally pretty much, and I can't sell originals. And every once in a while I'm like, oh, that'd be cool. But I don't know.
Speaker 6 (01:49:33)
Yeah. I started art as doing fine art and mixed media and real life art. I shouldn't say real life, but you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (01:49:43)
Social media.
Speaker 6 (01:49:45)
And then when I switched over to digital. I still wanted to do traditional, but I found even when I did an original piece in a painting, I'd still scan it in and edit it because it was like, well, I can get this effect way easier on the computer. It didn't quite turn out. I'm going to scan it in and fix it on the computer. So I never ended up being able to sell originals anyway. I was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (01:50:07)
Well, sorry, you can do a high resolution print of a piece, and then you can delete the digital file and then you have an original.
Speaker 1 (01:50:17)
Oh, yeah, I guess you could.
Speaker 6 (01:50:19)
Would you like a limited edition print run? You can sell those for.
Speaker 2 (01:50:24)
And if the original PSD is gone, then that's it. This is what NFC tried to do and failed miserably.
Speaker 1 (01:50:35)
Yeah, I guess I could go that route. Yeah. I never even thought of it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:50:42)
I can talk about this way too much, considering I don't make digital art.
Speaker 1 (01:50:47)
Wow, your hair bows are very much so, like a physical thing. All right. Everyone has gotten a chance to tell their tale right at this point. So did anyone else have, like, one last thing to add or is it about time to wrap up?
Speaker 4 (01:51:12)
Keep failing, I'd say.
Speaker 6 (01:51:13)
Yeah, it's only failure if you give up.
Speaker 1 (01:51:20)
I love that saying, yeah, you get to decide when it's actually a failure.
Speaker 2 (01:51:27)
Sorry. Remember that time I fell directly on my face running hurdles?
Speaker 1 (01:51:32)
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (01:51:33)
Yeah. So, like, I wanted to get up and finish, but I saw the look on the coach's face when she came over and looked at me, and I was like, maybe I should not maybe I should take this down.
Speaker 1 (01:51:43)
The time I jumped on my hand and they wouldn't your own hand? Yeah, I did. I jumped on my own hand and track guys, I was doing long jump and I landed on my own hand, and I wanted to finish the meet, and they were like, no, you're bleeding.
Speaker 2 (01:51:58)
So if you fail so bad that other people are horrified and or you're bleeding, it's okay to take the L. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:52:05)
You can go to the hospital. We'll see you out there next week.
Speaker 2 (01:52:12)
Again on the field. Yeah, or whenever the bones heal.
Speaker 1 (01:52:18)
All right, well, I think that's a wrap then. So thank you so much, everyone, for coming and doing the chat with us. And for everyone who's listening, we'll have new content on the first and 15th of every month, and I really appreciate you all, and I hope you make some really good art today. All right, we'll see you later. Bye.
❤️
Sarah, Sarah, Doug Hoppes, Iris Compiet, A.M.Sartor, and Crystal Smith
Discussed by Sarah Dahlinger, Sarah Forde, Doug Hoppes, Iris Compiet, A.M.Sartor, and Crystal Smith