Art and Grief
^^ Art and Grief is our first round table discussion of a heavy topic. This is the recording with the transcribed conversation below.
Hi friends, Sarah D here.
This is the transcribed conversation made via HappyScribe.
We know some people like to read more than listen and vice versa, and we will always try to provide both when we can.
Also a huge thanks to our guest: Jennifer Z Smith. Check out her art!
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Happy Art Making!
-Sarah
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Art and Grief Transcribed Conversation
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone, this is Sarah and Sarah and Jennifer Smith with https://www.mindbodyartist.com/ and today we're doing something a little bit different. We are going to be discussing art and grief. And since art and grief is such a wide ranging topic, we've brought Jen onto the show to join the discussion with us. And we're going to be going through a couple of different talking points and just kind of seeing what everyone's point of view is to hopefully give a more rounded answer of how many people do with art and grief, so hopefully it can serve you better.
Speaker 1
So I just mentioned that we have Jennifer Smith with us. And jen, if you don't mind, could you give a quick kind of intro of who you are and what you do and where people can find you?
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker 1
Hi.
Speaker 3
I'm Jennifer Smith. I'm a cartoonist. I've been doing web comics for about 10 years now. I just finished my longest running web comic called Lisa's Legacy. You can find that at Lisa's Legacy com. And I do random Daily Life comics at my instagram, which you can find at Jennifer Iron.
Awesome. Cool.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much. And thanks for coming on to do this. You are the first person that we've had come on the podcast, so welcome.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I feel honored.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks for doing this. So like I said, we have kind of a broad topic and a little bit of a heavy topic. But it was also the most requested topic that we had. Aside from how to fix broken arms. It was how do we handle making while we are grieving? So art and grief is a pretty you know, like I said, it's a big topic. And the first talking point that we were going to address was there's many different types of grief. And this is actually kind of a new concept for me personally, but I don't know if any of you to want to take that first.
Speaker 1
Like, what do you think about the different types of grief that are out there?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this is Sarah F. When I was thinking about what we were going to talk about tonight, you know, I was thinking the fact that first of all, I'm sending all the digital hugs out to all the artists who feel like we need to talk about this right now, because I think there's a lot of people dealing with a lot of crap right now. And the fact that this has come up as such a strong need in the community says a lot about where we are as artists and people right now living in the time that we are living in thinking about different types of grief.
Speaker 2
It's like the obvious stuff that we think about all the time, like a loss of a pet or a loss of a loved one, you know, things like that. But there's a bunch of people out here who are grieving, other things, like not being able to chase the dreams of their where they wanted to do, where they wanted to be with their art, for example, like Sarah, I know you had a quick reckoning when COVID started because you were going up into your very first year of, like, going to hit it real hard with cons.
Speaker 2
And you've gotten into a bunch of big shows and having all that taken away. Yes. Oh, my god, that's a form of grief, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1
It was really weird because up until yesterday, I didn't get that I saw a meme that people can grieve about a bunch of things. And it was like grief for your former life or your life that you could have had. And I was like, oh, my god, that was me last year. So you actually hit the nail right on the head, and I didn't know it was grief. Like, I didn't know that I was actually grieving the fact that I lost that, so I didn't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 1
So, yeah, it was really, really new for me. But, Jen, what would you think about the different types of grief?
Speaker 3
I think everybody's greeting just because COVID hit like, I suddenly had my daughter at home when I was expecting her to go to kindergarten. But I guess I was always familiar with the loss of a parent or loss of a pet, too. And so another type, I guess, of grief. And of those agrees. But when I had my daughter, I had postpartum depression. And so I did have that sort of grief of the life that I already had drastically changing. And I did not realize that I sort of need to grieve that part of me before I could accept this new part of me.
Speaker 3
So it kind of took a while for that, too.
Speaker 1
That's Super interesting, though, because you're like grief. One part of me to accept the next part of me.
Speaker 3
I got the therapy because I knew I was not well, and that was partly what we were working on was just brief. That how I thought of myself originally was changing, and that triggered grief, and I didn't even realize it.
Speaker 2
Wow.
Speaker 1
I had never even thought of that. That just is a little bit mind blowing for me.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And there's definitely, like, there's things that happen in your life that like you like you said, you can't even figure out, like, what is this feeling? And then you don't a lot of times you don't even realize that it's like it's the loss of something that you expected to have or the loss of something that you had that you don't have already. So it's not necessarily always just a person or a pet or whatever. It can be the loss of a job. It can be the loss of an opportunity.
Speaker 2
I think about you go to a job interview. It goes really well. You get a second interview it goes really well. You think, oh, my goodness. This is great.
Speaker 1
They love me.
Speaker 2
I like them. Everything's awesome. And then you get an email a week later. It's like, oh, thanks for your time. We've gone with another candidate. Have a great day. And like, that's grief. It was there. You were ready. It felt good. Everything was happening. And then now it's not.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know. That sting. I think everyone is listening to this knows that staying.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's like you've got a gosh. It's even as simple as, like, you're running a Kickstarter project and you do all the work. You set everything up. It's weeks and weeks and sometimes months, sometimes a year of Prep. You get it going and and it just doesn't do anything. And, you know, there's grief there. You're going to you're not just going to like, most people aren't just going to bounce back and try again. You know, it's like all that effort into what? So that stuff takes time.
Speaker 1
That's a Super good point. And I never thought of things like that. I thought of if there's death, there's grief. But like all the other things, like if your Kickstart doesn't go well or if you're a Patreon campaign doesn't go well, you don't get the position, like the new job. I never associated that with grief, but it totally is, which is awesome, because at least now I can be like, hey, wait, this is grief. And hopefully, you know, Act accordingly.
Speaker 3
Well, I think for a lot of those from what I've had to do in my life, too, whenever I come across some sort of grief like this or some sort of big change is I've had to learn to be with the sad for a while to let myself be sad and experienced the sad. And after I've experienced the sad most of the time, I can move through it, and then I can get on with my life. There are certain times with with grief, you can't quite do it the same way.
Speaker 3
After I lost my mother, I couldn't just move on quickly. But for some things, like the smaller the smaller ones. Once you've been in the Sat for a little while, sometimes is a little easier to move on. From that you grieve it. And then okay, now it's time for me to move on.
Speaker 2
Well, that's a that's a good segment into the next topic, which we were going to talk about dealing with grief because there are some people. And this is me. I'm one of these people when something bad happens or even when I anticipate something sad happening, like if I have a relative that's sick that I'm pretty sure is going to die soon, or if I had a pet that was Ailing or whatever. Like, I hyper work, like hyper fixate on work and being busy. And so if somebody significant in my life dies, if I lose a pet or somebody that's close to me and my family.
Speaker 2
And you notice me, like, really hitting the work stuff, like, real hard. That's my coping mechanism, because I don't want to deal with it directly. And it's, like, until I stop. And actually, like you said, like, deal with the sad, like, be with the sad. I'm just going to, like, be a mess.
Speaker 3
That's common. That's what I do that sometimes, too. I, like, pile myself. Like, it doesn't even have to be work. It just has to be, like, something cleaning the house.
Speaker 2
Doing, like, literally anything other than dealing with my feelings.
Speaker 3
Yes. So, like, okay, I'll accept all these offers to go out with other people and things like that just fill up my schedule so I don't have to do it via a sad eating, eating my feelings. I do that.
Speaker 1
I do my feelings. I'm a hyper work, too. I go, I make so much art, actually, when I'm driving, and some people are like, how, like, how did you do it? Because some people can't make art when they're driving. I make.
Speaker 2
Twice as much art, because I just don't want to be me, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1
You don't want to be sad. You don't want to deal with it. So you find something. They, like, drowned out. It sounds like most of us are like that, but there's definitely the people who, like, everything shuts down, right?
Speaker 2
And sometimes when Dodge passed away, Dodgers my dog. When he passed away, I was. I did this weird thing where it felt like I wasn't in my body. Like, I wasn't me.
Speaker 1
You're disassociating.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but I was still making the art, so I made two books, and I forgot that I did it. Like, it was crazy. Like, the Drinking With Dragons book I made that finished it, and then, like, kind of forgot I did it. That was an entire book that I made, and probably a disassociated state, because I just didn't want to deal with the fact that my dog died. And, I mean, that was quite a bit of work. That was, like weeks of work that I just just wasn't around there for.
Speaker 2
Like, I mean, I was physically around there, but my mind was somewhere else, right?
Speaker 1
That's how you were, like, processing, like, dealing with.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm the one who can't do art, actually.
Speaker 1
Okay, you've got one. You can do everything else.
Speaker 2
Okay?
Speaker 3
Because I tend to pick up, like, cross stitching projects or anything. Any creative project, like baking anything that isn't making, like, art, because I cannot. I just cannot be in that head space. I look at the page, and even if I try to attempt it's, like, those days where it's not working and, you know, it's not working, you know, no matter how hard you try, just hitting your head against the wall, that's how I feel when I'm, like, in the middle of grieving, and I just can't do it.
Speaker 3
So I do other things instead.
Speaker 1
I guess that's one way of coping, right? Is that you redirect your. You know. I mean, all of this is sort of. I think, like, most people have heard of whatever the stages of grief that there are. There's like, a list, but it's like, you definitely go through, like, the denial and the bargaining and all that stuff. But it's like, while you're in the process of dealing with that crap, you just need something else for your brain to focus on. But, I mean, I can picture in myself, like, I can picture a grief so large that I just become, like, a lump.
Speaker 1
Do you know what I mean? Like, if I lost my child, I would stop functioning for an extended period of time completely. Like, someone would have to take care of me. Level.
Speaker 3
I was like, when I heard my mom died. I think that the day after or the day I learned I was in bed for, like, the entire day.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1
So it's like, there's definitely, like, levels of grief and what you can expect from yourself, you know, and just knowing that when things hit you that hard, you might not make things for a few days or a few weeks, or maybe it's a few months. It just depends on what it is and who you are.
Speaker 2
I think that probably is a good segue to into the next talking point we have. It's how to be kind and understanding with yourself when you need time. Because, like you just said.
Speaker 1
It could be days.
Speaker 2
Weeks, months, and how how do you deal with that? How do you make yourself feel? Like, I know that when I'm having experience in grief, I generally feel like, I mean, you feel terrible. And I also Additionally feel terrible if I'm not being productive enough, which is odd because I'm being I'm making a ton of art, but I think you hit the nail on the head there with the disassociating thing. It doesn't feel like I'm doing anything.
Speaker 1
In your brain. You're like, this is just me distracting myself. I'm not being productive, right?
Speaker 2
I feel like I'm not being productive. But it's also like, I don't feel I guess I just don't feel like I'm there. And it's almost like I'll make entire paintings and it won't register in my brain. And I'm making that painting. So at the end of the day, I'll be like, I accomplished nothing today. I'm like, you did five sketches and finish rendering one piece. But because I wasn't really there for it, it doesn't like at the end of the day, it doesn't count. And I can do that for months.
Speaker 2
So I can feel bad for months because I wasn't doing anything. So I actually have to write down what I do if I'm doing that and then read it later.
Speaker 1
Or if you've got a support network, if you've got somebody that if you've got somebody in your house or in your life, that can be like, I know you're going through some shit right now. I know you're also trying to, like, keep up with because there are some times where you have to keep working. Like, grief isn't convenient all the time, right? So it might not be that you can take you might be able to take a couple of days or whatever, but depending on your employment status, you might need to be back working.
Speaker 1
Or depending on your financial status, you might need to be back working sooner than you're emotionally ready.
Speaker 2
And also, like, at least for me, sometimes I need to go through that period of like, I'm making a ton of art. I'm like, kind of going to like the little art cave. It's like where I feel safe. And I find a lot of people are like, oh, you're grieving. You shouldn't be in your little art cave. And I'm like, no, this is where I feel safe. So don't take me out of the cave. And a lot of people are like, oh, but you need to take time to heal, and you need to go outside and talk to people.
Speaker 2
And I'm like, no, Art Cave is safe. This is where I want to be. So that's a part of it, too.
Speaker 3
Everyone grieves differently. Like both me and my sister. My sister was constantly having friends over and being open with them and crying all the time. And I would just kind of cocoon, you know, I would be like, nope, I'm by myself. Leave me alone. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't see anybody. I just want to be cool me in my sad ball. Give me cooking and a pink kitten on me.
Speaker 1
Let me cry.
Speaker 3
So and I had to force myself to take a day off every week as a grief day, because otherwise it would catch up with me physically. And I would get this is also the first time it happened with my mom was I would have that feeling of feeling you get, like, when you're going to throw up. I have that feeling during my grief days. I didn't throw up, but I had that feeling, that physical feeling.
Speaker 1
And I just Yeah.
Speaker 3
And so I think if you can even just one day a week or even just two hours, take some time for yourself to just rest and be. Sometimes that can help.
Speaker 2
I love the one day a week thing. That's such a good idea, especially if you're not in a position. Sometimes deadlines are deadlines and due dates or due dates, but a lot of times you can get away with taking Friday off. No one really notices if you're not around on friday, so that's like a great or sometimes even Monday. But if you are in a situation where you must work because sometimes you must work, but you're a ton of grief, you can kind of get that one day and extra for dealing.
Speaker 2
That's genius. I really like that idea.
Speaker 1
Actually. I was looking at some stuff today when we were preparing to talk about this, and I found some, like, corporate type, like postings that were like, how to deal with a grieving employee.
Speaker 2
And it was like.
Speaker 1
It was here's, a guide to empathy. Oh, no, it was like here because the tips were offer offer genuine sympathies. It was like, don't try to give advice. I like all this basic, fundamental shit that people should, but sometimes people don't know how to people, so they need a guide. So I was very happy to find this nicely to sea level corporate explanation how to help your grieving invoice. But it's like, you know, don't expect your employee to be at or when they come back to work.
Speaker 1
Well, if you're a freelance artist and you're working for yourself, you're you talking to. You don't expect you to come back even when you're like, okay, I'm ready to get back to work. You don't necessarily. You're not going to come back at that's.
Speaker 2
So true. That's so true.
Speaker 1
I read that article and think of the employee as yourself, if your friend was grieving due to the loss of a loved one, the things you would say, like, hey, it's all right. Like, you know, like, talking, like, reaching out to your clients and stuff, like letting them know. Like, hey, I had this devastating loss. I'm all messed up about it. Like, I.
Speaker 2
Mean, sure.
Speaker 1
I guess there's the chance you're going to have, like, a hell client. That's like, oh, yeah, that sucks. Everything's due Friday at five or I'm not paying you.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but then that's like a major red flag to just not work with them again.
Speaker 1
Never again.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's like, okay, cool. We just weeding out the bad clients, you know, make it to Friday. But have either of you ever had to reach out to people? And what did you do?
Speaker 1
I've had a I've had a lucky few years. I feel like I'm drinking it by just talking about it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1
It's been a while for me that I've had. I haven't had any major losses in quite a few years. So that's good.
Speaker 2
Knock on wood.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I know. I'm like knocking right now. I think this door is would I haven't had to do that. But at this point, most of my clients are individuals. Like, I'm not working for companies at this point. I'm working for, like, people. I've had to ask my clients to wait for reasons unrelated to grief. And it's always just like, hey, guys, this is the thing that came up, and it's going to take up my time for the next three weeks or whatever. So all your custom stuff is on hold and reach out to me any time when I just stay in touch with people.
Speaker 1
I mean, I if it was for grief, it might be a slightly different message. It might be like, I'm going offline for X amount of days or weeks or months. Like, be back later by depending on the level. Right. But I feel like I've got a pretty good group of people, and they would be very supportive. So I feel fortunate in that way.
Yeah.
Speaker 3
I would imagine that if they weren't the client from hell, like, if you told them what was going on, they would just at least kept them informed. They would give you some slack. But I mostly I just dealt with more customers individually, so I can't say to what a business would do. But maybe a business.
Speaker 1
I have been on the client end of not necessarily grief, but I've definitely had artists that I've been working with that deal with depression, which is similar but different. Right. Because grief is usually, like, a temporary thing, but depression is more of a long term or reoccurring thing. But, like, you know, I have commissioned artists that have just disappeared for, like, months, and it's no response, no information from them, whatever. And then when they pop back up, I send a message and say, hey, just checking in.
Speaker 1
I know you were offline for a couple of weeks or you were doing some other stuff or something else is taking up your time. I just wanted to check in about this project, and most of the time, they're just like, oh, Yeah. Hey. And then we just pick up where we left off on being on the other side of the excuse me while I disappear for the time that I need for my mental health. You know, you just deal with it mostly. I mean, if I had anything that was time sensitive, I guess that could deter me from using that artist in the future, which sucks.
Speaker 1
But it would depend on, you know, multiple factors. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Sometimes you have to make those hard decisions with me. Personally, it's like, Super weird thing. And I've had family members say, like, why do you do this? A lot of the art directors I work with are fence with me on Facebook or Twitter. So when Dodger died, they knew, right. So I didn't even have to really reach out to my clients because everyone new, and they offered their condolences on that Facebook post. But, you know, because of the way I handle grief, I was back in the studio on monday, and I worked 15 hours that day.
Speaker 2
And then I was like, oh, this is not good. I need a dog. But that was the Dodge died on a friday, and that's what my Monday was. So it's not like anything wasn't done on time. That's just that's just how I cope with it. But I don't know. I like certain ads, and it depends on what you post on your Twitter feed or your Facebook feed and stuff like that. But it's kind of convenient if you have an ad that you consistently work with, and they're a good person.
Speaker 2
You can just, you know, friend them. And then you're like, Twitter post. My dog died, and then they know, Yeah.
Speaker 1
Sat down on the communication needs there.
Speaker 2
It's a little bit better than having to write that email a whole bunch of times, right?
Speaker 3
Yes. That can be daunting, especially when you're in the throes of Greece. That can make your life easier. It's great, right?
Speaker 1
Yeah. That actually when you go, if you're lucky enough to have a supportive network of people, how that can help you in those times if you can say, like, if you can delegate, you know, for example, in our town, we recently had the death of a seven year old or a grade, and it was like an unexpected, Super tragic thing. But the people in the town all got together and did a meal train. So this family got a dinner brought to their house every night for, like, multiple weeks.
Speaker 1
And that was like a thing that the community could do, even if we weren't even if we didn't know the family, we could still help in some way.
Speaker 2
That's really sweet. That's really awesome. That your community. You wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it's like if you've got if you've got a network, you can say, like, hey, guys, this is the stuff that I'm dealing with right now. This is like, I say you have to work. You have to work because you need to finish a project. You have to do something, whatever the reason is.
Speaker 3
But I can't.
Speaker 1
I have to finish this project, but I can't make my food. Can anyone feed me? It's hard to ask for help, but that's the kind of stuff that people who care about you that want to help you when you're in those situations will do if they can help you a lot of times.
Speaker 3
Sorry.
Speaker 1
I was going to say a lot of times people can't help financially, and if that's the thing you need to focus on, you can ask for help in other ways.
Speaker 3
I was going to just add to that having concrete ways for people to help, because I think if they want to help, but they're not sure what to do.
Speaker 1
Almost every.
Speaker 3
Could someone make me dinner? Or could someone, I guess, watch my kid or get me some supplies or whatnot they'd be willing to help you? Or even just like, hey, can somebody, like, help me out with this post or something? I think if you have concrete things that people can do to help you, they will step up for you because they have something to do and they know it will help you. Otherwise they want to help, but they're not sure how to help, and they don't want to come up.
Speaker 3
Some people like, they don't know how to people in regular times, grief is like, I don't know how to pee extra hard.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because when someone's grieving, especially if it's the loss of a mother or a significant other or child or whatever. Like most of us, I feel like our natural inclination is to just kind of stay out of it because we feel like it's like a private thing. And then depending on how people process that grief, I know there are some people who process grief really publicly, so, like, they're posting about their sadness a lot because that's how they're dealing with it. And then that makes people uncomfortable because they don't know how to react.
Speaker 1
And it's like just trying to see if you're really, really close to someone, you see that they're going through that. It's like you don't know how to help, but sometimes it's just as easy as messaging them and saying, I can see that this is really hard for you and that you're really your grief is very strong. And please let me know if there's anything that I can do to ease your burden. And even if they reply and say, wow, thanks. I don't need anything, but I appreciate you reaching out, or even if they don't reply at all, because they just don't have the they just can't, for whatever reason.
Speaker 1
At least you tried.
Speaker 2
Oh, that's a good point, though. The don't reply at all. One thing that I really appreciated would people would reach out to me, and some of them would put in their message.
Speaker 1
I say it's okay if you can't reply.
Speaker 2
Yeah, if you're not up to it, you don't have to reply to this at all. A lot of times, like, right after he died, I didn't reply, or I would just be, like, heart or think, or maybe even nothing, because I just couldn't write any more sentences.
Speaker 1
Right.
Speaker 2
So that's a good one.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Letting people know that you're there for them if they need you, but like that you're not not, like, expecting or requiring them to respond.
Speaker 2
You did another really awesome thing once, sarah, that I want to bring up. One time I was upset and I forgot what it was about. But you asked me if I wanted to type to you or talk to you, and I thought that was awesome because at the time, I think I was crying too hard to talk, but I wasn't crying too hard to type. So I was like, Let's type. And so we had a really productive conversation via text, and it made me feel a ton better.
Speaker 2
But if you were to call me, that's such a normal thing, call me right now. I'll call you right now. I'd be like, I can't even word at you, but I can type. So that I think is a genius thing, too.
Speaker 1
If people are looking to reach out to someone to ask if they want to form of communication is going to work best for you.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Sometimes I wanted to talk to people, and then sometimes I'm just like, I don't want to talk. I just I want the screen in front of me, but I do want to communicate. And so texting is good, I think just letting people know and giving them the choice, or even just like Sarah says, too, you don't have to reply or whatever, just whatever is best for you. That always just reassures me whenever someone tells me that.
Speaker 1
And if you're the grieving person and people are reaching out to you and you're overwhelmed, you can get overwhelmed. But I mean, I have a I have a lot of followers. I have a lot of, like, people in my network. So if I had some kind of traumatic grief, I would have potentially hundreds of people, you know, messaging me, asking how to help reaching out to me, which would probably feel good at the start, but then could quickly become overwhelming. Like, there's a reason, like, my birthday is hidden on most of my social media because it's nice when people are like, happy birthday, but when it's like constant, endless.
Speaker 1
So it's like it even though each person might mean their message that they send. It starts to feel empty and Hollow.
Yes.
Speaker 1
So, you know, as a grieving person, like, if someone listening to this is like when I go through grief, I'm overwhelmed by people asking it's totally okay to make a public post that says thanks to everyone who reached out, I might not be able to reply individually to everyone. I appreciate you reaching out to me or whatever. When I see posts like that on facebook, I know that if I've reached out to that person and they didn't reply that they got my message, whatever. But it also like, you know, it's like a way for them to let people know that they know that we care, even if they can't deal with our level.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I remember the day I posted. I didn't post about my mom until, like, a couple of days afterwards. I remember the day I posted about my mom. Everyone was well wishing, and the first couple were okay. And then a lot of them. I was just like, U. U. Not publicly, but privately. I sing me that my mom was dead. I knew what it was, and I was just like, so it was just kind of I can understand, like, you know, feeling the overwhelm of sympathy and they were all like, compassionate and understanding.
Speaker 3
But I just could not accept that at that point in time. And I think, you know, being okay with not being able to accept it at that time. As long as if you're the grieving person, you don't have to accept it right away. You can wait a while. But it's also if your contact with somebody who's grieving just know that sometimes it might take them a while and be okay with that.
Speaker 1
Exactly. Man, I feel like we covered a lot. Yeah, I think of anything else. Yeah. I was like, man.
Speaker 2
We covered all our top talking points, which is awesome.
Speaker 3
Oh.
Speaker 2
I think we're pretty good unless you can think of anything else to add.
Speaker 1
I would say that if anybody has any questions or anything that they think we might have missed, they can give it to us and we can do another one of these sometime.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's true. This is such a big topic that if we miss something, then please, please let us know. And we can always invite Jennifer back in.
Speaker 3
Let us come back also to say if you are grieving, that you are not alone, this is something everyone has gone through and everyone will go through. So you are not alone and don't feel afraid to reach out to your loved ones because they want to help.
Speaker 2
I you think that is an amazing place to end. That is an awesome message. So I think with that we'll wrap up and thank you so much. Jennifer Z Smith. You guys should go and find her art and check it out. And thank you so much for coming on my bird artist. And we will have another episode on the one St and 15 th of every month. So thank you both. And have a good night. And I hope you guys go and make good art.
Speaker 1
Thanks. Good night, Sarah. Good night, Jennifer.
Speaker 3
Good night.
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We sincerely hopes this helps, friends.
All the love,
❤️
Sarah, Sarah, and Jennifer
Discussed by Sarah Dahlinger, Sarah Forde, Jennifer Z Smith