Interview with Heather R. Hitchman
^^ We cover so much in our discussion with Iris. We talk about finding your way through a rocky career start, overcoming adversity, and making room for being yourself.
Tips from Heather
So here is my daily routine board!
All the top tasks must be done, usually in that order seen here but I allow myself to rearrange as I feel I need to on the day to day.
Below the line are my "creative work" tasks
The (*) tasks are mandatory and the (-) tasks are optional. If I have time I pick 1 for 1 hour.
Saturday is my day off
Sunday I do my makeup for video shooting / photos of me with my art (or sometimes it is also day off, whichever I feel I need)
I check them off in the boxes each day as I go :)
Book recommendations
"Do Nothing" by Celeste Headlee
"Rest" by Alex Soojung-Kim Pang
Hi friends, Sarah D here.
This is the transcribed conversation made via HappyScribe.
We know some people like to read more than listen and vice versa, and we will always try to provide both when we can. HappyScribe is roughly 80% accurate.
Also a huge thanks to our guest: Heather R. Hitchman.
Check out her art!
Happy Art Making!
-Sarah
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Interview with Heather Transcribed Conversation
Speaker 3 (00:00)
Hey, folks, this is Sarah and Sarah and Heather Hitchman today. And we are bringing you MINDBODY Artist. It's the podcast and blog that talks about the mental and physical game of being an artist. And like I said, today we're interviewing Heather Hitchman, who is the creator of the Teratoff World. And if you don't mind, Heather, can you tell people where to find you online and how to support your projects?
Speaker 1 (00:23)
Hey, everyone, I'm Heather Hitchman. You can find me on most social media at Heatherhichman H-I-T-C-H-M-A-N. My website is in shambles, but if you want to go see it, it's HeatherHitchman.com or Terratoff.com. And the best place to follow along with my world building project, Paranormal Fairytale World of Terratoff, is on Patreon.com/terratoff
Speaker 3 (00:55)
Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, I've been following terratoff for, I don't know, a couple of years now.
Speaker 1 (01:01)
You have? I have, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:04)
When did you start? Because it's a few years old now.
Speaker 1 (01:08)
Well, actually, this idea has been an idea of mine and some friends of mine since middle school. We would play Pretend and I made this world for us to play in. And this was like our imaginary world and it's changed a lot since middle school. It was very like Sailor Moon inspired Yay. I knew you'd like that. And it's always been like kind of this evolving idea in my head. Like, I'd love to build some sort of world and write books and make stories and artwork. And it's been about trying to think how many years it's been about the first kind of batch of unicorn drawings I did that kind of started getting attention online was back in 2015. So that was like very early days. So it's been about seven years since I started actually being like, okay, I'm going to make this a thing and not just have it be an idea anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:15)
So are you strictly like 100% on that project? Do you take commissions too or we're going to stop you at all?
Speaker 1 (02:25)
I am 100% independent. I do take some commissions if they are territorated. And it's a really cool idea.
Speaker 3 (02:35)
Awesome. That sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:38)
It's really fun. I've made a couple of really cool pieces that were commissioned by people that are fans of my work that I would have never thought of. I don't know if you are familiar with the hollow corn, the one that's like a unicorn that's inspired by like, the guy that holds the pumpkin head.
Speaker 2 (02:57)
That guy.
Speaker 3 (03:01)
The headless Horseman?
Speaker 1 (03:03)
Yes. He's inspired by the headless Horseman. And he's got like a row of unicorn horns coming out of his neck with like, Jacko Lantern stuck in them.
Speaker 3 (03:12)
That sounds awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:14)
It was so cool. It wasn't even my idea. So sometimes it works out. But I very rarely take commissions. I don't have any other clients or anything that I work on.
Speaker 3 (03:24)
It's just all me so I would love to know. Kind of the I know it's probably a long story, but how did you go from A to B? You must have had a day job at some point, right?
Speaker 1 (03:41)
It's been a journey. So I've been unquote freelancing since I was in middle school. Like, I would do furry commissions, and I even did, like, freelance writing. So, like, I did a lot of short stories for clients. And at the same time, like, in high school, I had various retail jobs. In College, I was getting an animation degree and working fulltime as well. And after working on other people's projects for so long, it just comes a breaking point where you're just like, I just can't do it anymore. I just started to kind of not enjoy the process of making art anymore. And I had a really hard realization that it had to change. So I started kind of making the shift. Once I was a young adult out on my own. I had my day job, and then I would make my own art. So at first, it was just kind of like I had a job in an animatic studio in Fort Lauderdale. I worked at Disney for a little while, just like in the parks. I wasn't an artist there or anything like that. I did, like, photography Studios. And I had a particularly bad job that's taking up all of my time.
Speaker 1 (05:03)
It was the kind of job where on the clock 24/7, I would get up in the morning and I would be checking my emails in the shower, trying to work when I should be just getting ready. And I come home at night, and I would keep working. And then they let me go. And I was so devastated because at that point in my career, I really wanted to get into the animation industry. And I just realized it doesn't matter how hard I work or how much I give of myself this industry, I'm not going to be happy. He wasn't my husband at the time. He was my boyfriend, I think still moved back in with my parents. We just kind of had a hard reset. And I was driving through Philadelphia with Tad, and I was just, like, lamenting all of my terrible life decisions, how I was never going to be an animator and how I just wanted that so badly. And he just said, It doesn't really seem like that's what you want to do. You hate it. I was like, I know, but I put all that effort and all that time into my degree.
Speaker 1 (06:12)
And, like, all of those boys I went to school with, like, didn't think I could cut it. And, like, I can't prove them right. I can't give up now. And Tad asked me, if you could do anything, what would you do? Money is not an issue. What would you do? I was like, I would make Terra Toff. He said, you should start doing that. So that's kind of like when I really started to take it seriously. Like, I set aside time in the morning, start writing, and to start doing my little sketchbooky things. And it was a painful process. Like, I wish that it hadn't been in a situation where I was kind of forced to just start working on my own. I wish I could ease into it, but it was just kind of a make or break moment. So I was still taking some commissions at that time, but I did manage to wean them off as our situation got better. Sorry, that was a really long answer.
Speaker 3 (07:06)
No, I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:07)
It was great.
Speaker 3 (07:07)
That was so insightful. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10)
And we all need that person. I feel like everyone's got that story. Like, everyone who's gone freelance kind of has that story where they had the conversation with the person who was like, So just do the thing. And you're like, oh, my God, just do the thing. Can I do the thing?
Speaker 1 (07:27)
I did not think of that.
Speaker 3 (07:30)
Tom told me to go do the thing. It was really funny. And then I was like, oh, the place I'm working isn't that bad. And then Tom's sister in law was like, don't you take your lunch break in your car to hide from your coworker so you can draw on your sketchbook? And I was like, okay, fair point.
Speaker 2 (07:49)
I was like, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:50)
Maybe I should go freelance.
Speaker 1 (07:53)
Just need someone else to give us permission.
Speaker 3 (07:57)
That's how it felt.
Speaker 1 (07:58)
Like, for me anyway.
Speaker 3 (08:00)
At least to know that at least one person is in your corner. I think that's super important. When you went freelance, what does your day start to look like? What's your typical day?
Speaker 1 (08:17)
Are you asking what my typical day is like now?
Speaker 3 (08:20)
Yeah. Like, where you're at now?
Speaker 1 (08:23)
Okay. I've actually started fairly new routine for the past month or so, and I'm really loving it. I've been reading a lot of books about how to manage stress and get good amounts of rest and how to be productive. I love all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:44)
Yeah, I'm just going to start taking notes over here.
Speaker 1 (08:49)
I actually took a picture of my daily schedule that I can send you guys later.
Speaker 2 (08:54)
Oh, yes, please.
Speaker 3 (08:55)
Yes, please.
Speaker 1 (08:57)
It's kind of rudimentary, but I basically just have a list of tasks can do them kind of, like, in any order that I see fit. Because for me, there's always this balance of trying to manage my anxiety by having routine, but also not giving myself such a rigid routine that it makes my anxiety worse. Because at one point, I was journaling how I spent every moment of every day. And that was very bad. That just made me kind of, like, obsessed with, like, there was, like, a 25 minutes window where I didn't do anything, and I'm such a horrible person. I'm, like, wasting my life away. And so that was really unhealthy. So I stopped doing that, and I just turned that into a regular Journal, and that's become part of my daily routine. Here are like my nonnegotiable, not work related things I do every day. First, I have wake up, go potty and get dressed.
Speaker 2 (09:58)
I love that those are on your list.
Speaker 3 (10:00)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:01)
Solid start to the day.
Speaker 3 (10:03)
I like it already.
Speaker 2 (10:04)
You have achieved three things, and you've just got now this is great.
Speaker 1 (10:09)
Exactly. It's like such a boost at the beginning of my day. Then I have my daily tarot reading, and I do my diary at that time. And I have a small breakfast. So sometimes if I want something sweet, it's like a Greek yogurt. Or generally, my regular first breakfast, speaking in Hobbit terms, is a piece of toast with some peanut butter and Apple and honey on it really good. And it's like a little bit of the savory and the sweet together. So I find it pretty satisfying. Then I usually take a break to do a two hour task, and I try to make that be art. For me, that means the canvas doing an art thing. I'm either drawing or painting for a two hour window because I've been reading Rest, and I also read do nothing, don't have names on hand.
Speaker 2 (11:12)
We'll link them when we do the show notes.
Speaker 1 (11:15)
Eight books they both talk about and specifically talk about in Rest, like all the scientific data behind how much more productive you are when you just have small pockets of focused work time. That's what I've been trying, and it's been really working well for me. And after that, I'll take a break and I'll have my second breakfast.
Speaker 2 (11:37)
I love second breakfast.
Speaker 1 (11:40)
That's usually like eggs and beans or something like that. And I'll listen to you like whatever my current Audible book is right now, it's a book about childhood trauma called It Didn't Start with you, but I don't know if I like it because it's really triggering.
Speaker 2 (11:58)
That's fair. Not a good morning. Listen, start your day.
Speaker 1 (12:04)
No, I'm debating right now if I want to finish it and power through or not. I think I might want to do a little bit more research on the author first. But for that, it was the four hour work week, and that worked really well because that is a book I really needed to take in small chunks. But just listening to it while I had my second breakfast was really good.
Speaker 3 (12:26)
I like that idea.
Speaker 1 (12:28)
Then after that, I have a 1 hour block for writing. So I do all kinds of, like, short stories for all of my art. I'm also working on a little 100 page story on my world of territorial that I'm going to be giving away in my newsletter for free. So I'm working on editing that right now, so usually I can get all of that done pretty early in the day. So then it makes me feel really accomplished because I've already done 2 hours of art, an hour of writing, and I feel really pumped and good about myself. Then after that I have to check my plants. I have to make time for lunch. Usually after lunch I have my 20 minutes nap, which I also learned about in rest and that helps me feel really recharged even if I don't sleep. It's just nice to kind of just lie there for 20 minutes. The important thing if you want to attempt napping is make sure you stand up and do a thing immediately after your nap is done.
Speaker 3 (13:34)
Oh, then you get the extra long nap. I know this well.
Speaker 1 (13:39)
That can be a mistake. I also have a time slot somewhere to walk outside for about 30 minutes and then I have another I race board on my wall that just has random adulting tasks that need to be done, like making appointments or shipping things, stuff like that. And I make sure that I do like one or two things off of that list. And then if I have time, I try to squeeze in an hour of either video editing or social media and I can usually get all of this done by around eight or 09:00. And then I have a couple of hours to do my own time, have dinner until I start my bedtime routine at midnight.
Speaker 3 (14:29)
Yeah, that sounds fantastic. What time in the morning do you wake up?
Speaker 1 (14:34)
It kind of ranges between like 09:00 to 10:00 a.m. Ending.
Speaker 2 (14:40)
So you have a later night and then a later morning.
Speaker 1 (14:45)
It's early for me before I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (14:58)
Get up before I do.
Speaker 3 (15:00)
It depends. Normally I've been waking up around like 730 or eight. Yeah, pretty standard. The little tyrant has settled into his winter routine of slumbering in between me and Tom. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:16)
And the Daystar doesn't rise too early. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:20)
He's been letting us sleep gracious of him.
Speaker 2 (15:25)
Oh, I know what is freelance, if not the ability to get up when you feel like it. Right. Is that not like the best part?
Speaker 3 (15:36)
I love not having to set an alarm. Like, my alarm is my dog and it's much nicer than somebody screaming at you. He jumps up on the bed and he sits on me kind of, but it's like cute and he like cuddles me.
Speaker 2 (15:53)
I can't 100% count on my alarm cat, but it's nice to have him instead of the alarm alarm. Yeah, that sounds like a wonderful routine. I kind of love how you do. You were saying you're kind of like busy work. Adulting tasks kind of come like later in the day after you've accomplished the art and writing stuff. That is your primary objective. So it's a little bit of the opposite of what I do because I definitely do get the responsibilities out of the way and then enjoy the art time. Have you tried it the other way? And found it works better for you this way, or is it just like you've tried it this way and it works and you've never tried it any other way?
Speaker 1 (16:40)
Oh, see, before I had a really bad problem. I would do all of those other things, and I thought I needed to do them to have permission to make art. My routine before was kind of like, I have to clear this entire board. And so I kind of fell into this habit of just never having enough time to create. And when I did feeling exhausted already.
Speaker 2 (17:07)
So you had to do it the other way because that was the only way you were going to get that creativity out.
Speaker 1 (17:13)
Yeah, exactly. I totally understand why for some people, like the art as the reward thing works better. For me, it just works better the other way around because I just get too obsessive about those other things, and I'd rather use for me that time of day, like, my peak energy on the creativity.
Speaker 2 (17:34)
So when you wake up in the morning, you're the most energized and ready to go.
Speaker 1 (17:38)
I'd say a couple of hours after second breakfast about then, yeah. And then probably again in the late afternoon because I really feel like I'm a night owl by nature. But also I do conventions and I'm totally on night owl time. I used to go to bed at like 03:00 A.m. And when you have to do a convention and change your sarcadian rhythm and all of that, it's extremely exhausting. So part of this was also so that I could make the act of doing conventions a little easier on my body.
Speaker 3 (18:21)
That makes sense. Even just going over to California messes me up big time for conventions. What were you saying?
Speaker 1 (18:31)
I was going to say, like, how far away is California for you? I'm not sure where you're based.
Speaker 2 (18:34)
Actually, that's a three hour time difference. We're East Coast.
Speaker 3 (18:38)
Yeah, that's rough.
Speaker 1 (18:43)
All right.
Speaker 3 (18:46)
I love how you incorporate rest so much. I need to do that more in my life. And I did the exact same thing you were talking about today. I did all my adult tasks first, and then I was so burnt out, I made, like, I don't know, a drop of art. And that was it. And I was like, this is terrible. I'm going to have to switch it around.
Speaker 2 (19:03)
Sarah, the last time we talked, we were talking about doing the two lists. Right. And doing the art task for 40 minutes or an hour or whatever, and then doing like a 1015 or 20 minutes grown up task. And then. Yeah. You haven't implemented that yet.
Speaker 3 (19:23)
No. Well, I had. But see, the thing is, I usually do it for the way I normally do the two tasks. Okay. This is a terrible way to describe it, but this is how my head breaks it down. Important tasks and nothing tasks is how in my head I think about it. So a nothing task is like doing the dishes, so my brain doesn't need to do it. So it's not worth nothing.
Speaker 2 (19:47)
But my brain there, but it just has to get done, right? Exactly.
Speaker 3 (19:52)
So the marketing and all the emailing and stuff like that wouldn't be in my brain a nothing task, because that's like marketing and making client connections and stuff like that. So I think what I need to do is flop it, though. I can still do all my creative tasks in the morning and my adulting marketing tasks and stuff like that, like business admin. And in between, I'll do dishes and laundry and stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:18)
Yeah. It's interesting how every different artist sort of has to figure out what's there. Do you work on incentive or do you work on your upfront? What motivates you and then figure that out and then work from there.
Speaker 3 (20:34)
So you did mention that you took a nap. What other ways do you recharge? I'm, like, super interested in how much rest you do during a day.
Speaker 1 (20:46)
Let me think. Well, I have my nap and then usually when I'm having first breakfast or second breakfast, I'll be listening to an audiobook of some kind. Or I'll just take a 30 minutes break and browse through Ticktock.
Speaker 3 (21:03)
I was such a good time think just going to ask what your relationship with social media is like. I spend way too much time on it. I know that. But do you cut yourself off or do you?
Speaker 1 (21:15)
I'm really trying hard to cut myself off, at least for certain windows of the day. There are some social media that I feel like I can break away from really easily and others that I can't like if I'm watching TikTok, I can just kind of feel a brain cells just like disintegrating and really sucks you in.
Speaker 2 (21:35)
And it's so clever.
Speaker 1 (21:38)
Yes, I try to save stuff like TikTok for when I'm done my homework of day. If it's something like Instagram or Facebook or just checking discord briefly, I can break away from that more easily. So if I'm sitting there digesting and I'm not quite ready to get up and start moving again, I'll just sit there and do that. When it comes to more concentrated times of recharging, I love video games. Video games are my favorite thing ever. Especially PlayStation games.
Speaker 3 (22:16)
Oh, nice.
Speaker 1 (22:16)
There hasn't been a new PlayStation game that I've been excited about in a while, so I'm feeling a little sad about that. But Horizon Zero Dawn comes out in a few days. I'm really pumped for that.
Speaker 3 (22:27)
I'm getting so excited for it.
Speaker 2 (22:30)
So how do you work gaming into your schedule? Because you didn't mention it in your daily. Is that like one of your evening things?
Speaker 1 (22:37)
Oh, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:37)
It has to be the me time.
Speaker 1 (22:40)
Okay. I'm going to share some little bit of personal information. For a long time, I was on anti anxiety medication and it made me really dizzy in the morning, so I had to just kind of sit and wait for the dizziness to pass. And while that was happening, I would play video games, but I found myself getting sucked into the games so much even, like, when I wasn't feeling dizzy anymore. And then it just kind of ate up all my day. So I told myself, he wants to go, okay, I'm going to stop playing games. I'm just going to power through the dizziness. And I couldn't power through the dizziness. I was feeling, like, really depressed and sad. So I talked to my doctor, and I got off of the antianxiety medication because I feel like I'm in a much better place now, personally, and I have so many more coping skills than I did before when I first started taking it. And now it's like TikTok. It's one of those things where if I start doing it, I'm not going to want to walk away. I used to have this ritual every morning where I would check in on my animal crossing island.
Speaker 1 (23:49)
That would take forever. So now I just request all of that till the afternoon after I've done all of my other stuff. I've had dinner, so that's, like, part of my winding down, unplugging my brain routine, kind of getting myself ready to sleep.
Speaker 3 (24:09)
I like that. I think I need to do that. I think I'm going to just adopt your schedule for a little bit. It sounds wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:15)
Give it a try. Let me know how it works for you.
Speaker 2 (24:18)
Yeah, I definitely have naps, but I don't have them as, like, a regular thing. They're like on a day to day basis. It's kind of like that midafternoon sort of 203:00 kind of time period where you said today you sort of started to lag. Like, I'll just pass out on the couch for half an hour, and a lot of times my kid will be, like, in the living room watching TV or playing games or something. And I can fall asleep anywhere, but it means I won't sleep for hours. Right? Because at some point she's going to be like, hey, mom. So I kind of do it as like, if I'm so tired that I can fall asleep listening to Shera on volume 50, then I was tired and I needed that rest. Yeah, but I highly recommend midday naps as needed. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:18)
Apps have had a significant impact on my day, and I always poo pooed naps. I always was like, for old people. I guess I'm old people now because I love napping.
Speaker 2 (25:31)
There are some days where I'm like, Do I need a nap or do I need to walk? Am I dragging because I really do need to rest, or am I dragging because I need to get up and move? And it's almost like a 50 50 chance. Either one is probably going to make me feel good. So it just depends on the weather and how I feel that day.
Speaker 1 (25:54)
Totally relate.
Speaker 3 (26:00)
Looking at some of the questions, I'm trying to weed them in organically.
Speaker 2 (26:04)
But just go to the next one.
Speaker 1 (26:07)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:09)
Okay. So you did say that you went out and you had walk time, right? Is it just walking? Do you ever do stretching or meditation or like yoga or anything like us like that? Or is it just outside in the Suntime?
Speaker 1 (26:28)
Half an hour walk is like the one thing that I definitely try to get in every day. And I've tried many other different kinds of fitness routine. Like I have a couple of fitness YouTubers that if I have the time, I'll do a couple of dancing with Fitness Marshall or I was really into the Wii Fit for a while there, but I was doing some research about fitness and I forget what the exact clinical term is, but we actually get a lot more exercise and burn a lot more calories doing kind of like mundane things during our day. So I try to make that consciously in my mind and try to work that in with my chores. So when I'm having my second breakfast, I'll do the dishes because otherwise I'm just sitting there staring at like, sausages Cook. And that's not fun. I'll just go and do the dishes. I take responsibility for doing the litter. I take responsibility for vacuuming and doing those things. For me, I prefer that to doing something like a dance session or a yoga session, because in my mind I can easily write those off as like a waste of time.
Speaker 1 (27:56)
If I'm vacuuming or I'm taking the trash out or if I'm going walking to go do a task or cleaning or something, then it's like I'm being productive at the same time. So I don't talk myself out of it. And it's kind of become like a sacred part of my routine now. And I enjoy doing those things. I think the key is to just find movement that you like doing and that you are motivated and enjoy doing. So that's kind of like where my focus is.
Speaker 3 (28:31)
And that's a great way to look at it. That's a good way.
Speaker 2 (28:35)
We got a whole talk about joyful movement coming up soon with Ruby. Can't wait for that.
Speaker 3 (28:40)
That's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (28:41)
I think I can't wait for that.
Speaker 3 (28:43)
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one big time. Oh, wait, you can go.
Speaker 1 (28:49)
Oh, sorry, I forgot to add I also got a bike recently, so I haven't put it together yet, but once it's put together, I'm looking forward to biking around town and getting some movement in that way as well.
Speaker 2 (29:00)
Oh, that sounds fun.
Speaker 3 (29:01)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:03)
I got some rollerblades over the winter, and I'm really looking forward to the nice weather. I've got a Cemetery next to my house, which you'd think would be like a really awkward place to do sports stuff, but everyone in town uses it for letting their kids bike because it's just flat and straight and no cars.
Speaker 3 (29:25)
No cars, and it's safe.
Speaker 2 (29:26)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:28)
That sounds so fun. Back when I was living with my parents for a little while, there was a Cemetery down the street from my parents'house and Todd and I would walk to the Cemetery every day and just talk about Terra Toff and talk about his story ideas and talk about all kinds of things we wanted to do. So that hits me in my heart because that is like a really fond memory for me.
Speaker 2 (29:52)
Yeah. And then now my kid and I will walk around and we'd be like, oh, hey, Edna, how's it going? Idna.
Speaker 1 (30:07)
We had a game where we try to find the oldest grave we could. Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:12)
The Cemetery is not that big, so it's pretty easy to find those. But as long as there's not an active funeral happening at that time, the people who own the property that run the Cemetery, they're happy to have people use the grounds. It's nice. It's a big open space.
Speaker 3 (30:36)
It's awesome. So you're talking about ideas while you're in the Cemetery. Where's your idea, like, where do in general, your teratoff world and ideas and inspiration comes from? Like, you make new characters in it, and I see you flush out the world generally. Where do you pull for inspiration?
Speaker 1 (30:58)
Mostly people and events from my real life. Hopefully that doesn't scare anybody.
Speaker 3 (31:07)
It makes so much sense. A lot of my books. Yeah. Parts of my life, too.
Speaker 1 (31:12)
I mean, they tell you to write what you know. Right. Because that is what is going to come off as genuine, and that's what people are going to relate to because you can come at it, like, from a genuine place. And people are going to know immediately, like, oh, that's me. I went through that, too. And I know that she did as well, because you could only say those things about these topics if you have experienced it, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (31:39)
Totally. It's like that encounter song Under Pressure. Totally has to be written by someone who's an eldest child. It must be.
Speaker 1 (31:48)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:50)
I was like, you're speaking directly to my soul here. I know who you are.
Speaker 1 (32:00)
For example, one of the hard life lessons that I had to learn growing up was that a lot of people that seem really charming and nice and want to help you on the outside really don't have good intentions. And that kind of became my inspiration for the concept of the rot, which are the baddies of the world, of territorial. They're creatures of magic that are corrupted from the inside out. And how it works is that this plague comes into their body and it changes their personality and their motivations first, and then their outside body will kind of transform and become mutated as a reflection of what's happening on the inside. But they still all grow these beautiful flowers and wines and plants on them. So they kind of have this, like, allure of beauty, but you can still tell by looking at them that there's something wrong with them. And that kind of came from a desire of mine wishing that there was a way I could just kind of look at someone and know if they were good or evil or not.
Speaker 2 (33:09)
The danger person.
Speaker 1 (33:12)
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (33:16)
I love that. That is very cool. So I'm reading some of the questions that the people on social media were asking and someone wanted to know about your relationship with your pets and how that affects your art and workflow.
Speaker 1 (33:36)
I have two cats, Holly and Lila, and they might be asking that question because I've been talking a lot on social media lately about my cat Lila, who has been sick for the past in about a year. About a year ago, we found out that she had cancer, and she was diagnosed with mammary gland cancer, which is a very aggressive cancer. And we were told that she was going to die. And so we were doing all kinds of crazy stuff, like taking her to all these different vets, getting all these different tests done. And I was very vocal about the process on social media. Luckily, it turned out that a misdiagnosed her.
Speaker 3 (34:21)
She doesn't have cancer.
Speaker 1 (34:23)
I get to keep my cat. That's scary. Yes.
Speaker 3 (34:27)
This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (34:29)
I know. And it was like, I can't even tell you how happy I was because the prognosis was so bleak. This particular cancer has, like an 85% mortality rate. If your cat has mammary gland tumors, there's, like, very little chance that they're going to survive. But she did. She still has a lot of other health problems, though, that we have to deal with. She has a heart murmur. She has something going on with her liver. She's got extremely bad arthritis. So we've been working on ways to kind of, like, accommodate her with our schedules, which works out pretty easily when you're working at home. If I didn't, I don't know how somebody who doesn't work at home would be able to care for her. Honestly, she needs like three different pills a day at very specific times. So it could be a lot if you're not in a position like I am. But now the challenge is figuring out how do we do conventions. Right. With this cat that has very specific needs?
Speaker 2 (35:34)
Well, I got to tell you, I've got the diabetic cat. And I mean, he needs insulin every 12 hours, but it's every 12 hours. And he can occasionally miss a shot, but he really shouldn't miss a single shot. And we actually locally in our community, there's more than one person in our community that does pet care visits. So if you go on, like, your social media, even like your local Facebook group page or something like that, and just say, does anybody know anybody that does pet well care visits? There's probably somebody in your area, and it's not inexpensive. And I could see it being prohibitively expensive for some people, it will be like $35 a visit. But she comes for like half an hour. She sits with them, she gives them his food, she gives them his shot. So it's really been great because, like you said, when they have such specific care that needs to be met, and she'll come at the exact time that I asked her to come and definitely look into that because they're like our little fur babies.
Speaker 1 (36:48)
I actually did look into that. And I got seriously burned.
(36:52)
Really?
Speaker 2 (36:52)
Oh, no.
Speaker 1 (36:53)
Yeah. This woman who was like five stars on Google, had amazing ratings. I was like, all right, this is the lady. She's got to be the one to watch my cats and do all this, right? And we were going to do, like, a trial over Thanksgiving because we were going to go see my husband's family because his grandmother has been very sick. And Annie had, like, a two hour window to show up, and we were running late, and the pet nanny didn't show up, and we were still there. And we're like, where is she? So we tried calling her, and she just got really nasty with us on the phone. She called Tad an asshole. And she's like, why are you still there? And we're like, what? It was just so bizarre.
Speaker 2 (37:36)
That is so bizarre.
Speaker 1 (37:38)
That broke all of my trust.
Speaker 2 (37:41)
There are good ones. There are good ones.
Speaker 1 (37:45)
One day I will learn again.
Speaker 2 (37:49)
You need the asshole rot alert for the.
Speaker 1 (37:54)
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:55)
This lady takes pictures of him and text me the photos of him getting head scratches. And yes, they're out there.
Speaker 1 (38:02)
Let her go. She's from the moon. She's great. So if you're a lucky girl.
Speaker 3 (38:09)
I guess this is a weird way to segue into conventions.
Speaker 2 (38:13)
But that's where we're going.
Speaker 3 (38:15)
Yeah. I saw your booth at DragonCon. It was amazing. And you're welcome. It was beautiful. And I'd love to know a lot about conventions, actually, how you approach them, how you talk to people. And then you also mentioned that you have a Patreon that you talk about at your convention and whatever you want to tell me about conventions.
Speaker 2 (38:40)
I would love to know the convention low down.
Speaker 3 (38:43)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:44)
All right. So my kind of philosophy for approaching conventions is really inspired from my time working at Disney World. Disney is master at marketing, their Masters at creating an immersive experience. That's kind of like what I'm focused on when I'm designing my booth. I can't have, like, dispersers like Disney does, but maybe one day, who knows? I'm very detail oriented because I have seen firsthand how paying attention all these little details really does make a difference and makes you feel like you're not at a convention anymore. You've stepped into this other world and the other thing that I like to keep in mind is with a lot of my paintings, I kind of draw into my theater kid background, and I love just staging all of my pieces with one point perspective. Like, you're looking at a stage. That's kind of how I put things in proportion as well. One of these days, I want to try when I frame a piece, actually putting, like, a little curtain on the frame really actualize this vision I have. But that's also the point of view that I'm coming from when I design my booth. So if you've ever seen my booth, it has this really gigantic golden curtain going across the top and down the sides, and it's got all these roses woven in, and it's my husband's responsibility to hang them because he's the tall one and he's always like, if we have to do this, I'm like, yes, this is the thing that people are of magic.
Speaker 1 (40:27)
It is non negotiable. We need it. Then I do other things. Like, I wrap little vines around my art stands. I try to make sure that I'm really cohesive with colors and materials. Like, for a while, like, everything was cast iron, but that started to become kind of impractical with traveling. So now I try to use a lot of woods and try to consistently stay with, like, this kind of black and Brown kind of background, so that all the colors and everything of the artwork first forward. So that's kind of like my setup mentality. And I'm always kind of tweaking it. Like, for a while, I would only have framed pieces for sale on my pro panels because I wanted to be able to sell everything. But I recently started experimenting with having a giant vinyl banner of my most popular piece, and that's actually worked out really well to catch people's eyes. And I still have plenty of room to have stuff hanging on the wall without having to stress about making sure I have so many framed things. Because when I first started doing cons, I think I had three pro panels. Now I have Dix.
Speaker 1 (42:00)
Trying to fill that with originals can be tough, especially because I usually tend to wait till the last minute to look and see what I need to have framed and hung up. It's like the 09:00 P.m. Rush to Michaels to get a frame, right? That's the best I can say about my setup without actually having photo AIDS available. But you also asked me about how I talk about Patreon at my booth, right?
(42:31)
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (42:33)
Okay, so I am a very extroverted person. I love talking to people, and I feel like that is where my strength is. I'm not great at selling stuff online. Like, trying to get people to sign up for a Patreon online is like pulling teeth for me. And I don't know if it's just because I haven't figured out the algorithms because they hide everything that says Patreon or buy here or whatever. It's just like it's an uphill battle online. So when I'm in person, I really try to take advantage of that time because it's just something I'm reasonably good at. And what I have found that works for me is actually like having my mailing rewards with me at the booth so I can show them off. Yeah. That is the number one tip I have have your rewards there at the booth. I have a whole bunch of these little welcome to Terratov goodie Bags that are prepared ahead of time. And they just have like a little teratoff postcard with like a handwritten note that just says, thank you for joining the realm. I'll throw a couple of stickers and some buttons in there. And if I'm getting the hint that this person is really interested in what I'm doing, in particular, if they say that they love the stories, that to me tells me that this person is going to be more likely to be invested in actually reading the posts, they're not just there to be like one art, please, and stick it on their wall and never see you again.
Speaker 1 (44:13)
This person is invested right. Then I have my little welcome to Terra Tokody bags there. And I'll say something like, well, if you love the stories, you can check out my Patreon and you can read all of these stories and see all of the new art in completion before it gets posted anywhere else. If you pledge at any amount, even if it's just a dollar, you get this goodie bag and I hold up the goody bag and I show it to them. And if you pledge at this amount, you also get this other thing. And I'll pick up whatever it is and it's changed over time because the rewards have changed. The other thing that I made you're literally like.
Speaker 2 (44:53)
This is the thing. And they're like, thing.
Speaker 1 (44:56)
I have to have it. I love that I'll have them on display at my booth and they'll be like, how do I get that thing? And then I can tell them that's like the easiest way.
Speaker 3 (45:06)
Honestly, that sounds so genius. So it would be like if you pledge at the base level, you get the goodie bag, and if you pledge higher, you'll get like a goodie bag and a little print or something. And then you keep escalating up like that.
Speaker 1 (45:20)
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:21)
Yeah. And Sarah, just for context, I've also seen artists do like, if they're at a Con and they're doing like a Patreon push, they'll do like, oh, if you join before the end of Con, I have a special right now and you get like XYZ. So it's like if you join this weekend, this is like a thing, a special that I'm doing and you can run it simultaneously online and at Con. So like, join Patreon this weekend and everyone gets X or whatever. I do those, but I do them on monthly runs. So, like, join this month and you'll get X, because I'm doing it all online, so it takes time to get the word out. But at Con, you can do it, like, face to face.
Speaker 3 (46:03)
That's genius.
Speaker 1 (46:05)
Just make sure that you verify their pledge before you give it to them. If they say, oh, I don't have Internet, I'll do it later. Like, don't believe them.
Speaker 2 (46:15)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:18)
So someone comes to the table and they're looking at your stuff, and when is it the right time to throw in the Patreon pitch? Because I find I'm often talking to them about the stuff on the table. And when do you segue in?
Speaker 1 (46:34)
Unless they point directly to something on my table. That is a Patreon exclusive thing. I wait until check out. I give everybody that buys something a business card, and I give them a Patreon card. And I'll say, like, here's my business card, and here's my Patreon card. Have you heard of Patreon before? And they'll either say yes, and I can kind of tell from their body language or how they're behaving like, if they want to know more. And from there, I'll kind of take their queues to decide if I want to talk to them more about it. One thing that I always make sure that I ask if they haven't heard about Patreon before, I'll say, do you mind if I take a moment to explain it to you real quick? Because I want to respect their time and I don't want to come off as just like a salesy person. So this way I'm at least getting their permission to talk to them about it.
Speaker 3 (47:28)
Right. And I got to say, me being introverted, that's like, horrifying.
Speaker 2 (47:39)
That's why you need to bring me to Cons, because as your extroverted booth Babe, people will come to your booth and I'll be like, oh, my God, have you read Sarah stories?
Speaker 1 (47:49)
This world is incredible.
Speaker 2 (47:51)
Let me tell you, I've been her patron since day one. It's the best money I spend on Patreon.
Speaker 1 (48:00)
You need one of each. You need an extroverted person and an introverted person. Like, when I'm looking for a booth Babe, I always try to pick an introvert because I'm an extrovert, so my energy can be a lot for some people. So then they'll naturally gravitate to the other person, and that's fine.
Speaker 3 (48:17)
Yeah, that's fair. So you're like, okay, can I explain Patreon to you? And then I guess they either say yes or no.
Speaker 2 (48:25)
Right.
Speaker 3 (48:25)
And then you just kind of roll with whatever they do, man. Yeah. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (48:33)
Sorry. You just need practice.
Speaker 3 (48:34)
Yeah, I probably just need practice. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:37)
And if you want to do, like, a role play session one night, we could totally do that.
Speaker 3 (48:40)
Yeah. Working on getting used to rejection.
Speaker 1 (48:44)
But I do, like, I role play at home, like, test out a little script on my husband or something.
Speaker 3 (48:51)
It's smart to see how it resonates with people.
Speaker 2 (48:55)
And I think selling in person and, like, doing cons and doing tabling and stuff. When I first started, I watched all these YouTube videos about how to make sales and how to do all this stuff, and a lot of it I kind of wrote off as like, okay, that's kind of smarmy or I wouldn't really do that. But there were things in those videos that I still to this day will think about when people like your art and you can tell they like it. It's very easy to sell them more in your head. You're like, Well, I don't want to push them. I don't want to be pushy or whatever. But sometimes they want it and they just need that person to say, well, you can, you can buy more.
Speaker 1 (49:43)
They just need someone to give them permission. Right. Not you.
Speaker 2 (49:46)
Sometimes it's you full circle.
Speaker 3 (49:53)
Oh, that's great. Let's see. Yeah, that's super helpful with the Con stuff, cause hopefully this year. This year will be my year, maybe. Who knows?
Speaker 1 (50:03)
Fingers crossed. I've actually cut back on because it was getting, like a little too much. So now I'm just kind of focusing on, like, four big ones. And I find that that's also really helpful because then it doesn't become so, like, exhausting, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (50:24)
Yes. Since you work in Targets pretty much exclusively, do you ever get bored of it? Do you ever burn out and have to do something else?
Speaker 1 (50:36)
No.
Speaker 3 (50:38)
Just living in a dream world?
Speaker 1 (50:42)
Well, because it's basically like a world of any kind of magical animal I could think of. I have a lot of options, so I never really get bored. Right now I'm working on a book of unicorns, so I'm kind of feeling the itch to draw other stuff. But I still love drawing unicorns.
Speaker 3 (51:04)
Right. And I mean, you'll finish the unicorn book and then you go back to your world, which is huge, and you can do a whole bunch of other different stuff in there.
Speaker 2 (51:11)
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:11)
Well, like, the unicorn book is like a part of the world, but I do have, like, this side story that I think about doing sometimes. It's like a scifi post apocalyptic story because I really love zombie stuff, and I love postapocalyptic stories. So it's, like, totally different from what I'm known for. But there's this story that I really want to write, and my husband wants to do, like a comic strip or something based off it. So that's kind of like a little side project in my mind, thinking about when I quote, unquote retire from Terrace. Maybe I'll do that. Or maybe I'll write it in my spare time as, like, a practice because I've never actually published anything myself before. So I would hate to publish my first terror talk book and make some sort of licensing mistake or something. And like, oh, shoot. And I signed away all my rights and by accident, and now I'm screwed. I think I might benefit from doing, like, some sort of practice thing. I don't know. It's an idea. Maybe.
Speaker 3 (52:19)
I don't think it's a bad idea. I love that setting too. The post apocalyptic setting. It's really cool. And I mean, doing a practice run sounds smart to me because something always goes wrong because you don't know it until you mess it up.
Speaker 1 (52:35)
Exactly. You don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (52:37)
That meme that's going around all the time. That's like, I'm so afraid I'm going to commit tax fraud because I'm an idiot, right?
Speaker 3 (52:43)
Yeah. That's so true, though.
Speaker 1 (52:49)
Like being in line at the TSA. What if I accidentally bought a weapon?
Speaker 3 (52:55)
I didn't mean to commit crime, but apparently I have. I don't want this, though. Oh, man. So we're doing really good on our question. The only thing that I think we have left is what happens if you are having a bad day? Like, if the art is just not coming.
Speaker 1 (53:15)
Well, since I started this new schedule, that actually doesn't really happen that often anymore.
Speaker 3 (53:23)
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (53:23)
Maybe you cracked the code.
Speaker 3 (53:25)
I'm totally doing it. If you send me that.
Speaker 2 (53:27)
I'm implementing this every week we do an interview with a new artist. Every week. Sir has a new thing to try.
Speaker 1 (53:34)
It's true.
Speaker 3 (53:35)
I know. I have a list of all the books I need to read and the schedules I need to try, and it's great.
Speaker 1 (53:41)
That's how we learn. Like, what works for us, right? It's all the experimentation. I've been doing the same thing, like reading all these books and cherry picking, like, what I think could work for me, actually. Really good tip about this in particular. So in the book I'm reading right now called Rest, there's this chapter where they talk about the value of not finishing something, and all the great writers would finish their day, like, mid sentence, because then when they came back, it was so much easier to just start writing because they hadn't finished their thought from before. And while they were resting their brain in the background was like, thinking of all the next stuff.
Speaker 2 (54:26)
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1 (54:28)
If you work up to a point where you've finished what you were trying to achieve, then your brain kind of doesn't know what to do next. And for me, that really resonated with me because I'm a finisher. Like, I am a type A personality. Like, get shit done type of Gal. I would not let my butt leave seat until I was done with. Like, the thing is.
Speaker 3 (54:53)
I know these feels big time.
Speaker 2 (54:55)
Oh, sorry. You got to try this.
Speaker 3 (54:57)
I know this is, like, mind blowing over here.
Speaker 2 (55:00)
Well, it's crazy because there are some nights where I'll be working on a bow and I'm, like, exhausted.
Speaker 1 (55:05)
Right.
Speaker 2 (55:06)
And I know I should just go to bed, but I'm just going to finish it. I'm just going to finish this bow. But if I don't, if I just leave it and then I go to bed, like, what you said. Sometimes I'll wake up and I'll be like, oh, my God, I know what I can do. Oh, my God, I can make it better.
Speaker 1 (55:23)
It's so true. I thought it was malarkey. And then I tried it, and I was like, So that actually made my life a whole lot easier. Okay, now I know.
Speaker 2 (55:32)
Like, you know what you're going to do in the morning? You know where you're going to start because it's where you left off last night.
Speaker 1 (55:37)
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (55:38)
It's really easy to get it going again.
Speaker 1 (55:40)
The hardest part of a drawing is when I have to go from the mock up to a sketch, like, on the actual paper I'm going to draw on before I would force myself to finish the whole sketch. Now I'll be like, if it fits within the two hour window I blocked out, be like, I'll just finish the hair, or I'll just finish the head, or I'll just finish the top half of the body. So then even right now, just saying it like, I feel settled and calm in my soul because I just like, I know what I'm going to do next. Instead of being on this cliffhanger of like, well, now I have to start doing the next phase of Color, or now I have to start this whole new part. It's a lot less intimidating for me.
Speaker 2 (56:21)
Almost nothing is as bad as finishing an audiobook at the end of the night for me. Like, if I finish a book and it's like bedtime, that means the next day I'm like, what am I going to listen to? Because I actually audiobook while I work, so I audiobook pretty much all day, so I really blow through them. And when I get to the end, if it's not a series and I don't know what book is next, choosing the next book is like a whole.
Speaker 1 (56:50)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:53)
I like to end them. Like, if I can arrange it so that they end kind of midday and then there's not as much pressure to pick the next one.
Speaker 1 (57:05)
Exactly. Or you can just do what I did and start a thread on Facebook and be like, I just read this book. What should I read next? And then you get a whole bunch of recommendations.
Speaker 2 (57:13)
My entire Audible wish list is books people have recommended to me, and I don't remember who recommended what, so I can't even go fake them.
Speaker 3 (57:26)
I have to read Giddy in the Night. Everyone's been telling me that.
Speaker 1 (57:28)
Oh, my God, I can't wait for you to read that book.
Speaker 2 (57:33)
When you finish the first, like, six pages of that book, I want an update on that first Giddy and the 9th Lesbian Necromancers in Space.
Speaker 1 (57:49)
Nice.
Speaker 2 (57:51)
It's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (57:53)
I'm excited. That's, like, my first fiction book in a while, like, two years, so it will be good. Good. But, yeah, I think that's pretty much all the questions we have for you. Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about or bring up or any like, if you're like, I need to tell the world this. Feel free.
Speaker 1 (58:17)
I'm looking through the questions. I'm just reading through my notes. We can cut this out.
Speaker 3 (58:28)
I mean, if you had anything that you wanted to bring in, feel free to oh.
Speaker 1 (58:33)
Well, this is a question we kind of skipped, and I wanted to talk about it because I actually just talk to my husband about it last night. Said, if you're comfortable, can you tell us about an art failure that you bounce back from?
Speaker 3 (58:45)
Oh, yes. I can't believe I missed that one. It's like, exactly in the middle of the list.
Speaker 1 (58:49)
Yes.
Speaker 3 (58:50)
I would love to know that.
Speaker 1 (58:53)
My husband and I are both artists, and Tad is the kind of artist that draws all the time, and he's very fast. I'm the kind of artist where I have to kind of, like, take it piece by piece. But I wasn't always like that. When I was a kid, I used to be a lot like him. I would just draw constantly. And then around high school, I got really, really depressed, and I stopped drawing. Like, I stopped drawing for years, and I wanted to get that feeling back because we were talking about somebody that we know used to be interested in art and was really prolific. And then they just kind of stopped and was wondering how they get back into making art again, because after a really long break, it can be really hard. And for me, it was like part of what was making me depressed at the time was that I wasn't making art and said if I don't make art, I just feel dead inside. And I was like, that's how I felt like I felt dead inside. But also it was so much harder to get up and draw because I was dead inside.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08)
I just could not do the thing. And it was like a battle. I felt like I was learning to draw all over again. I was back to, like, doing very rudimentary figure studies and basic stuff like that. But I will say that I kind of edge through that faster than when I was a kid and I was learning the first time. So if anybody is going through that, like, if you haven't drawn or you haven't made art in a really long time, you're scared to do the thing, just like, start doing it. And even if it sucks and even if it hurts and even if you feel that inside, just keep going and it'll get easier.
Speaker 2 (01:00:57)
I haven't drawn in, like two years because I really burnt out on it, and it was emotionally painful to even think about drawing. I just signed up to teach a figure drawing class at the local library in March. I haven't drawn in two years, so guess what I need to do between now and March. This is like fire under my ass. Nothing else has gotten me to do it. And so I have signed up. I have volunteered myself. I'm like, do you know what we're going to do? Because it's an introductory class. So do you know what we're going to do, friends? We're all going to learn how to draw together again.
Speaker 3 (01:01:40)
That's sweet.
Speaker 1 (01:01:41)
We're just going to approach it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:43)
We're just all going to start over, and you don't know what you're doing. And I know what I'm doing, but I haven't done it in a while, so let's do this.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50)
That's going to be great.
Speaker 1 (01:01:52)
I can't wait for riding a bike. It'll come back.
Speaker 3 (01:01:54)
It will.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55)
I hope so.
Speaker 3 (01:01:57)
Like, it came back. I had to do the same thing. I had to drop for injury. Due to injury, yes. But I started doing the Zoo studies, and that was kind of how I got back into it, was because I was super embarrassed. I was felt so embarrassed because my drawings were bad. And if you're outside in the middle of nowhere looking at bison, they don't care.
Speaker 2 (01:02:23)
The bison don't care.
Speaker 3 (01:02:24)
Yeah. They're not, like, being, like, could be better, Sarah. Like, they're cows. So that's how I got back into it. I would just find the quietest corner of the Zoo where there was no one. You can't do that. If there's, like, a leopard, everyone's looking at the leopard. But how many people are looking at the reindeer? Not too many. So I would do that. And that's how I got back into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49)
I'm kind of hoping that I get a class of people who are all, like, really inexperienced and are just, like, I don't know, drawing sounds fun. And then I could be like, all right, friends, here we go. Gesture cities.
Speaker 3 (01:03:03)
I think you'll be fine for a beginner class. Definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07)
I hope so.
Speaker 3 (01:03:07)
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09)
I believe in you. You can do it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11)
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:03:11)
You got this. All right, so I think that's a wrap. Unless anyone can think of anything else.
Speaker 1 (01:03:21)
I have no thoughts.
Speaker 3 (01:03:23)
Okay, well, then I guess it's time for us to go to bed.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30)
All right. Well.
Speaker 3 (01:03:31)
Oh, my God, this is amazing. Thank you so much for coming on to chat with us.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35)
What a great chat.
Speaker 3 (01:03:36)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:03:37)
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 3 (01:03:39)
And at some point, maybe we can do a deep dive into all these rest books you've been reading, because I'm like, man, I really need to implement these things. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52)
Got to rest and relax and have a nice time, right?
Speaker 3 (01:03:55)
It's so hard. It's so hard. But I'm dedicated. I'm going to do it. All right. But anyways, so thank you, everyone, for listening. We'll have new content on the first and the 15th of every month, and I hope you make some really good arts today. All right. Have a great day. We'll talk to you later. Bye.
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Sarah, Sarah, and Heather
Discussed by Sarah Dahlinger, Sarah Forde, Heather R. Hitchman