Overcoming Self Doubt and Creative Burnout

^^ We cover so much in our discussion with Jaym Gates. We talk about coming back from a long art burnout, dealing with feelings of not being enough, and more!

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Hi friends, Sarah D here.
This is the transcribed conversation made via HappyScribe.
We know some people like to read more than listen and vice versa, and we will always try to provide both when we can. HappyScribe is roughly 80% accurate.

Also a huge thanks to our guest: Jaym Gates. Check out her art!
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Happy Art Making!
-Sarah
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Interview with Jaym Transcribed Conversation
Speaker 1 (00:00)
Hey everyone, this is Sarah and Sarah and Jaym today for Mindbodyartist.com. This is the blog and podcast where we talk about the mental and physical aspects of being an artist. And today Jane Gates is is joining us to talk about overcoming self doubt and creative burnout. And Jaym, can you tell people listening where they can find you online and how they can support you?

Speaker 2 (00:26)
Yeah. So the easiest way is actually just on Twitter or Facebook. Twitter. I'm at Jaym Gates mostly because I have trouble remembering my own usernames most of the time. So I figured simple is better. I also have a website that actually has most of what I've worked on, which is just JaymGates.com

Speaker 1 (00:47)
Awesome. That's nice and easy. So you just need to know your name.

Speaker 2 (00:52)
Exactly. That was the hope and having an unusual name help with that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:58)
Alright. So I was super happy when you reached out because the topic of overcoming self doubt and creative burnout is super important. So I guess to get started off, what are your techniques for overcoming the selfdelt part? Because I still deal with that all the time. I've been an artist for years.

Speaker 2 (01:24)
I don't know that I overcome it so much. So I actually got started in the industry in science fiction and fantasy publishing, kind of more from the writing and editing side when I was 21. And I'd come out of a really conservative upbringing where I was home schooled for a lot of it and I didn't have a ton of socialization. So I was like this feral little creature coming in from the wild. And all of a sudden the writers group that I got involved with, most of them have gone on to be these big Editors and authors and artists who have done amazing things. And then I'm editing these award winning authors that everyone knows that are getting all of this acclaim. And it's just one of those things where it's kind of like when you don't have a lot of self confidence to begin with and then you're in with these just amazing people, you just kind of go, why does it matter? What am I doing that's worth anything? And so I actually stopped creating entirely for seven years. I want to say I didn't draw, I didn't write, I didn't really do any of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:32)
And the big thing for me with the burnout was honestly to find what I really enjoyed doing and to divorce it from having to do a thing for protective sake. So for example, because I was a freelance writer for so long, writing always was, am I doing this for a reason? How am I going to solve this? What am I going to gain from this? So I got back into art because it was a way that there was no expectation. I could just spend a lot of money on art supplies and do it for the fun of it. And that really started bringing it back in where it's like, I'm doing this. I know I suck. I know I'm terrible. I haven't drawn in ten years, but because it doesn't matter, I can just go and learn from it and have fun with it again.

Speaker 3 (03:26)
I love that.

Speaker 1 (03:29)
I would love to hear about kind of the process of you getting back to drawing, because that's a big gap. The most I've ever not drawn is two years. And that was due to injury, minus two years.

Speaker 3 (03:42)
And I'm just starting to poke my head back out.

Speaker 2 (03:48)
Yeah. It was a combination of factors. It was self doubt. It was going through some really bad situations and then both personally and professionally. And I was never amazing. I just this year got. Yeah, this year, I guess, got diagnosed finally with ADHD. And so for a long time I wanted to do the thing, but I couldn't do the thing.

Speaker 3 (04:16)
Party an ADHD corner.

Speaker 2 (04:20)
I think at this point, I know more people who have it than don't.

Speaker 3 (04:24)
It's like the running joke is that if you're the only neurotypical friend and you're friends, you're not.

Speaker 2 (04:31)
You just haven't found what you are yet. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (04:35)
I'm so happy with everyone that I know, though, who's, like, in their late 20s or even after their early 40s who are getting diagnosed so they can be like, I know why I do the thing now.

Speaker 3 (04:47)
I know why.

Speaker 2 (04:51)
Yeah. But for me, a lot of it was I always really wanted to do it. I didn't have the tools, and I had so much self doubt that it was really, really hard for me to overcome that it's not worth it. And one of the big challenges is that I have a very visual thought process. And so for me, things like when I'm planning out a story or whatever, I see it very clearly, and then I can't translate that to paper. And so I would just get discouraged and stop. And I was actually talking to one of my partners, and we were talking about a little bit of this. And he mentioned a friend of his that had kind of just decided to start drawing and had been posting their process along the way. And he's like, you know, at first it was just really like, yeah, you're very clearly learning. And he's like, in three to four years, this person's posting major stuff and is doing these huge contracts and really amazing freelance projects. And it was one of those things like, right, you don't just know how to do it. It's not talent, it's work.

Speaker 2 (06:05)
And that's actually been something that's really helpful in watching the artists that I know. Like you, Sarah, talking about how hard you work and how much you struggle and having to figure out what you're doing and learning your own way. It helps me feel less alone, because for so long, it was only talk about the positives, only share your successes and I feel like as an industry, we've started going back more towards talk about what you can't do and what you have to fight to do.

Speaker 1 (06:35)
Oh, I think that's so important. And I'm so glad you said that, because that's one of the things that bothered me was, like, the whole, like, you can't compare yourself to someone's highlight reel. And I kind of was like, well, I don't want to be a highlight reel. And then a lot of people in the beginning were like, gasp, don't ever do that on social media. Then they'll know your weaknesses. And I'm like, yeah. And then we talk about them. And it's funny, too. My relationships have gotten so much better ever since I was like, hey, by the way, I'm not marble pedestal over here.

(07:07)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:08)
So I think it's actually beneficial.

(07:10)
Right.

Speaker 3 (07:10)
Did you see that link that I posted on Facebook today? That power of vulnerability. I don't want to say her name. Brown.

Speaker 1 (07:18)
Renee Brown. I started reading her book. I'm not personally trained by her, but I have her app and I watch her movie. So the woman who's, like, my fitness trainer right now recommended that book. It's like something about power of imperfection or something. And I've been working my way through it. The audiobook from time to time. And yeah, it's amazing.

(07:40)
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:42)
Her whole thing. First of all, her Ted talk is hilarious because it's like listening to you talk, but it's just like she talks about, like, if you can be authentic with people and you can share your true self, that's how you make these true connections. And, like, the people who are living with their whole heart are the people who are experiencing life to the fullest or whatever. And so it's like, kind of tying back in with what you guys are saying. Being vulnerable lets people in. Like, yes, there's always a risk that you're letting in people that want to hurt you.

Speaker 1 (08:19)
Right.

Speaker 3 (08:20)
But that's life.

Speaker 1 (08:22)
And then at least the way I figured it is that inside there's a second set of teeth that can bite the mean people.

Speaker 3 (08:36)
Outside side perimeter.

Speaker 2 (08:40)
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:42)
Always keep them guessing.

Speaker 2 (08:45)
How many layers does that toothy onion. Oh, God.

Speaker 1 (08:56)
But anyways, yeah, now I got a little derailed, but we were talking about being your authentic self. How you're making that come back from the seven or ten year bank you took from Art?

Speaker 2 (09:14)
Well, one of the big things that it took me a long time to realize how badly it impacted me. But early in my career, I was the communications director for the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, which it's a big organization with a lot of very opinionated, strong personalities, and a lot of them were very older male at the time that I came in. And I remember at one point there was some controversy. I don't even remember what it was, but I had dared to take part in the conversation. And Jerry Porno came in and said, you don't get to talk about this. You are the voice to say what we want you to say.

Speaker 1 (10:00)
Wow.

Speaker 2 (10:02)
And I'm like 23, maybe 24 at the time. And here's this guy that is advising the White House and is an international name. And he's just basically told me that I don't get to exist outside of being a spokesperson, like the mouth of Sauron. It took me a long time to get past that.

Speaker 1 (10:24)
Yeah. That's a terrible thing to say to someone.

Speaker 2 (10:31)
That was a lot and it's just been a lot of that. And then there came a point where I was like, I go through these things. I know I'm not the only person that does. So I'm going to start talking about it because I come from a place of relative privilege. And so if I can talk about these things and get people who can't talk about it some space to see themselves and exist. And that has opened up a lot for me because it's like I'm less afraid to say, I suck at this or I failed or I can't do this yet. And that's the big thing is I can't do this yet.

Speaker 1 (11:09)
Oh, I like that. I can't do this yet.

Speaker 3 (11:12)
That's the number one thing I'm working on with my seven year old.

Speaker 2 (11:15)
Right.

Speaker 3 (11:17)
So if we can get it in there early.

Speaker 2 (11:20)
Yes.

Speaker 3 (11:24)
But what I'm saying is it goes back to how we're raised. Right. Because a lot of times people think you've got something in your history that told you if you're not good at it, don't bother. That's somewhere in there like, oh, yeah, I know you want to do track, sweetie, but you're really not that fast. So maybe you should think about doing something else. And so it's like that attitude that we get from people growing up that says, oh, you really aren't suited for this. Why are you even trying?

Speaker 1 (11:57)
And I think the earlier and the more often we start doing those things like, I can't do this yet, or I'll still practice at it. Like if you start doing that with a kid, it's like ingrained there for so many more years than if you're learning that as an adult.

Speaker 3 (12:11)
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (12:13)
I wonder if that's a generational thing, too. I was raised with the idea that you were either good at something or you weren't.

Speaker 1 (12:22)
My grandmother's motto was do it perfect or not at all, which has made the journey into being a freelance artist rather challenging because you fail a lot, you fall down a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:37)
And what is right. I think that's another big challenge that I've always had. Is it's so nebulous and subjective? I mean, you can look at something and say, this piece of art speaks to me personally, but there's a lot of art out there that is really loved that I have no emotional connection to. When is art right? It isn't that can't be a thing. But if you're a very black and white thinker, it's like, well, how do I know if I've succeeded at this? This is a perfect me. Therefore it must be useful.

Speaker 1 (13:09)
Yes, I've been there. We can have a lot of the negative self talk going on. Actually. Speaking of that, it seems like you actually do a lot of work to decrease your negative self talk. Is there anything that you do? Is there any things you say to yourself or any exercises you do or do you just try and keep be present and try and not do it weirdly.

Speaker 2 (13:35)
The biggest thing that I found that helps is to because I used to whenever I was doing that, I would try to make myself stop thinking that. And it didn't really work. And what I've discovered is to almost treat it like a kid where you sit down and you're like, okay, I'm going to listen to you. I'm going to hear you, and then we are going to address this and work through it. And I have this sort of weird thing that I think is partly a response to growing up with a lot of trauma. But also I work with horses and dogs. And so having the ability to kind of just separate yourself and not have an emotion that you're putting on to someone else is really good for me. Kind of separating from my own thoughts a little bit, just letting them kind of spiral and then going, okay, calm down. Let's address this. Let's look at this. What's going on? And I forget what it was. But the other day I just hit this really, really bad spiral, and I was sitting there and I went, I know what I'm doing right now. I'm going to let this go for a minute, and then I'm going to figure out what caused it and talk myself through it and then get to the other side.

Speaker 2 (14:48)
And so instead of having days of just, like, depressive crashes, I'll have very small short drops and then be able to bring myself back up.

Speaker 1 (14:57)
That's really good.

Speaker 3 (14:59)
You're learning how to be your own best friend.

Speaker 2 (15:02)
I'm training myself.

Speaker 3 (15:06)
We all need that person, right? The negative self talk. It's like if you said that to your friend, you'd be like, don't talk to my friend like that. Like, I've actually I have friends that do that. Like, I'll be like, oh, this is really crappy. And I suck at this. And they're like, excuse me, are you bad talking my friend?

Speaker 1 (15:23)
That's really sweet.

Speaker 3 (15:25)
Yeah, it's great. And it's like having if you don't have an immediate someone to do that for you, if you can train yourself to do it for yourself and like, you've always got your buddy.

Speaker 2 (15:36)
Yeah, well, and it's so easy to just kind of fall into that and listen to yourself. And for me, growing up, I grew up in a deeply conservative, racist homophobic environment. And so I had to learn how to take that immediate thought or reaction and go, no, this is not it. And stop, wait, and then move forward much more consciously and thoughtfully. And the same with working with animals. If a horse is acting up, there's something that's causing that I'm going to have an emotional response, but I need to not respond based on that emotional response. I need to stop and wait and figure out what the problem is and then go and deal with it.

Speaker 3 (16:23)
Do you know what people with ADHD do very poorly?

Speaker 2 (16:27)
Stop and think, yeah, that thing you just said.

Speaker 3 (16:34)
It'S a hard one because that's the thing is that a lot of us, not all of us, obviously, but a lot of people with ADHD, we don't have that. We have the impulse, the immediate reaction to whatever the thing is. So it's like thing happens, respond.

Speaker 2 (16:50)
And you don't do.

Speaker 3 (16:51)
Like, the filtration part or the thinking step or the stuff that's in between, say you're cooking dinner and you think, oh, goodness, I forgot. I have to write down that note because I didn't send that email. So you go into your office to write down the note to send the email, and then you see you got a message from a friend, you're talking with them now. The smoke alarm is going off because you've just burned casserole. So it's like that's the problem. And training yourself to stop and think part before you react is like one of the hardest things.

Speaker 2 (17:23)
I'm really grateful that I grew up with horses and have continued to work with them because that has been the biggest thing for me is that horses are so emotionally empathetic. A horse will know if you're having a bad day. You may not know you're having a bad day, but the horse will know. And it's why they're so good at working with kids. I actually spent a few months when I was 19 working at a camp for chronic and terminally ill kids. And I was working with the riding program. And it taught me a lot because you have these horses. Like, we had a horse who could not be handled by adults. She had a background of abuse, and she was not rideable by any of the adults. But we could put a kid on her who could not walk, who had to be held up by three people, and she was safe for that child. And it's like watching that over the years where these deeply damaged horses are fine with kids. And it's like, okay, how do you put yourself in a mental state where you are safe for a traumatized animal? You cannot have those.

Speaker 2 (18:30)
You can't be uncertain, you can't be afraid. And so you have to be able to identify those things in yourself and pull them out. And combining that with martial arts in a form that really focuses on self awareness and control, of yourself to manage your response to the people around you. Those two things went together perfectly for helping me work through my emotional challenges.

Speaker 3 (18:54)
And which form of martial arts was that?

Speaker 2 (18:57)
It's called systemic. So it's actually Eastern European, awkwardly. It's actually Russian in its current implementation, but it's based on old Cossack and largely mounted combat. So it's very much about controlling your own breath, your own body. Like the biggest thing that you do before you get into any actual fighting is learning to pull tension out of different parts of your body. A lot of the training is just literally lying on the ground and being kicked or stepped on or pushed around and learning to get over the fear of it so that someone comes in with a real hit, you're not afraid of it, and you don't react with fear, and so you take minimal damage from it. And it's a lot of mind management, really.

Speaker 3 (19:50)
Oh, that's really interesting. We're going to have to get a link on that.

Speaker 1 (19:54)
Yeah, that sounds super intense on that. It's funny. I've done Shon karate, and I love Shon, but it's very good. I need more chill in my life, and there is very little chill, in short.

Speaker 3 (20:10)
Ok.

Speaker 1 (20:13)
So as much as I love it, I'm just like, full on.

Speaker 3 (20:18)
I need some Taichi or something.

Speaker 1 (20:20)
Yeah. If you wake up in the morning and it's just like screaming and running and everything all the time, amped up to the Max, and then your martial arts is basically that. But with more yelling, I'm like, you know, it might be beneficial for me to have a downtime period. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:39)
Like, it might fit you on the surface.

Speaker 1 (20:40)
But ideally, with all the time in the world, I would do so toakon and something else, like something relaxing, but we only have so much time.

Speaker 2 (20:50)
But anyways, what were you saying when I say relaxing and learning to manage your body, some of the somewhat more complex forms of that? I have been doing push ups on asphalt. There are times when you literally have someone swinging a giant chain at you. So relaxing is more about learning that even when things are really bad, as long as you control yourself, you do so much more to manage the damage that applies to you. And that has been a big thing for me in learning that I can't control my environment, because I am absolutely one of those people that needs complete control. But as long as I control myself, it makes such a huge difference. And it acts as a calming for the people around me. It allows me to respond to things in a way that's not impulse based. And I accredit that a lot for having gotten so much control over my ADHD, too.

(21:54)
Wow.

Speaker 1 (21:54)
That's really incredible, because I understand on the surface, the whole, like, you can't control your environment, you can control yourself. But can I implement that? Yeah, I get it in theory, but can I actually do it? And most of the time, I'm pretty bad at it. Like, most of the time, I'm not that great. So I don't know. Maybe I need to look into your martial arts. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:22)
This is a whole new thing in the wheelhouse. We're going to have to.

Speaker 1 (22:27)
Have no idea. But I think that's really cool. It's one of those things where I would love to learn how to be better at it, because you hear all the time. It's like in different martial arts, it's stoicism all sorts of things. You can't control the outside world, and you really can't, but you can control your reaction to it. And I was like, lol, you can control your reaction to it. I'm still trying.

Speaker 2 (22:54)
Yeah, I know that feeling really well.

Speaker 1 (23:00)
So earlier when we were chatting, you mentioned how you kind of got through when you were doing your comeback, and then you were kind of comparing yourself to other artists. Can you talk more about how you did that?

Speaker 2 (23:14)
So one of the artists that I actually like, I got to publish her first piece in science fiction and fantasy, which is still one of my really happy things. Galen Dara, who is an amazing person. Her art is fantastic, and I've been lucky to work with her many, many times over the years. And I look at her art, and I'm like, this is so good. I don't draw constantly. I don't have that. Just like, there's always a pencil in my hand, but I want to be able to do things like this. And so that's the level of artists that I came up with. And working with John Picasso and all of these other people who are doing Hugo award winning things and Chesley awards, it was just one of those things where it's like, I'm seeing these beautiful pieces of art that take hours to do. I know how much focus and time and skill it takes, but for some reason, always mentally, it wasn't one of those like, oh, you can train yourself to do it. It's well, this is something that is beyond me, and I don't know why I had that, but art has always, for me, been something that is not like this.

Speaker 2 (24:34)
It's a talent thing, but I just can't get there. And there's always been a really weird mental block about it. And I was talking to my therapist about that a while back, and she was just like, you know, because art is so intensely personal, and because visual art is basically a snap instantly. Like, if you're reading something, you're interacting with it for a while. You develop a picture of it as you go on. You have the ability to kind of shape people's reactions to it. A piece of visual art you look at, and you have a response immediately. And so I think that when I was looking at my art versus someone else's I'd go, well, this sparks joy. This does not spark joy. Mine, clearly I suck. And instead of looking at it and going, this does not spark joy, because I haven't had the time to put into it. I haven't had the focus. They have been doing this for years. They have been learning their style. I'm the level one at this, and they're the level 20. And getting the maturity to kind of realize what was informing that and being able to draw that comparison really helped me kind of step back and go, okay, I need to be okay with this.

Speaker 1 (25:52)
That's a really good way to do it with the level ones, and they have a higher level. I explained I was working out with someone and they were getting really down and I was like, I've been doing this move consistently for eight years and you've just done it. So that's like comparing a newborn baby with an eight year old. You would never expect a newborn baby to do what the eight year old can. So I like the idea of, like, levels.

Speaker 2 (26:24)
It's one of those things where I feel like gaming is really helpful in understanding a lot of those things. Like, there are people that have invested all of their upgrades in strength versus people who are much more about decks. It's like that with your skills and everything else as well. Maybe you started out with a higher strength score than decks. I mean, that's me. I have never been able to turn a cartwheel, but I've always been one of the strongest people in any given situation for my size. And learning to apply that to the more mental stuff is challenging because that's not really how we train ourselves to think.

Speaker 1 (27:10)
Yeah, that is really true. A lot of times go back to your upbringing. We weren't really trained to think that way.

Speaker 2 (27:19)
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (27:23)
All right. So have you experienced any recent creative burnouts that you've gotten through, or was it just that one big period?

Speaker 2 (27:35)
I don't even know if it's burnout so much as it feels like I'm trying to kick start something back up again. So, like when you're trying to start a car with a faulty motor and you get those sputters and starts and stops in 2020, I went through this phase of just constantly painting, constantly drawing, and actually having some really solid results. And then for some reason, well, I say for some reason, I am really good at copying things. I can look at a picture, and if it's highly detailed, I could actually copy it really well. Most of the time where I have issues is in the control of specific shapes, where you don't have so much room to hide between, like, shades and gradients and all that. But what happens is I'll do something a couple of times and go, oh, I know how to do this. And then I'll start getting creative. This is how I end up with really dense cakes sometimes as well. So I'll do this thing where it's like I'm following all the rules. I'm doing really well, and then I'll start branching out and I won't be having the same success.

Speaker 2 (28:48)
So then I'll just kind of collapse and have this mini burnout and then go, okay, I'm going to do this. I can do this. I start doing it right, and it's just a cycle. So it's like I keep going through these mini burnouts, and what I've found works really well for me is actually switching medium. I make jewelry a lot, which is something that I am very comfortable with and confident about. So I can just step back, go do that, get some like, I have succeeded at the thing. I am selling the thing. I really like the thing. I'm going to go try something else, and it's like it recharges me a little bit.

Speaker 1 (29:27)
I think you're the third person to bring that up, so that means that's probably very significant. The switching mediums trick. You're in good company. Brimmersani said that eras Compute said that.

Speaker 3 (29:44)
And then I joked that I switch every ten years.

Speaker 1 (29:46)
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:48)
It's just that my build up and burnout is just like longer, but then I nuke it from orbit and start over.

Speaker 1 (29:55)
Yeah, you're like scorched Earth, and then you go again.

Speaker 2 (30:04)
I ended up with a lot of art supplies because I context switch very rapidly. Great.

Speaker 3 (30:12)
That sounds like it keeps you when you feel burnt out with one thing, then you've got another thing you can shift to, and then you don't let that feeling of, oh, I sucker, I can't do this, or I'm screwing this up. Like, take over. You kind of just shift to another gear.

Speaker 2 (30:30)
I mean, it's an ADHD superpower, too, if you know how to weaponize your inability to focus where it's like, okay, this thing is frustrating me. I am going to intentionally switch to something else. And at least for me, I don't know if anyone else. I'm sure other people have some of this, too. If I do a thing, get frustrated, go away and do something very different. When I come back, it's like my subconscious has been sitting and chewing on it and suddenly it'll go, hey, I got it. So I make these weird leaves where it's like I suck at something for a long time. I go away from it, and then I come back like, two levels ahead. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:11)
I love the fact that I didn't draw for two years. And I just started kind of pick up and drew the other day, and I was like, hey, this is actually decent. I was not expecting decent. I was expecting you're starting over.

Speaker 2 (31:25)
What are you doing? This is weird.

Speaker 3 (31:27)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:27)
The biggest surprise for me with that is when I hurt my arm. All my rehab I did with 2D art, and I didn't do any 3D art for a long time. Like, I couldn't draw for two years, and then the rehab after that two years was like, another two years. So it's like two or three years before I touch ZBrush. And when I started sculpting again, it was like a huge level up. It wasn't even, like, one or two levels. I was like, oh, my God, I am like, ten levels higher at Sculpting because I had spent years doing studies. That was my big thing. I didn't want to think so I just did a ton of animal studies. Like, I would go to the Zoo, and then all of a sudden I could sculpt way better. And I had never even thought that my yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:15)
You had just spent all that time building up that visual library, right?

Speaker 1 (32:21)
And I didn't even realize that. I was like, oh, man, I was feeling so bad about it. I'm like, I'm going to suck at sculpting. I'm going to have to start over. And it was like I was so much better than what I was like. I was like, I did not expect this at all, which was awesome, because then I got clients interested and started that part of my business up too. But initially I was just doing 2D stuff, and I was like, oh, maybe one day I'll get back to 3D, and then I got back to 3D, and I was like, oh, wow. I'm like, wait, right back in it.

Speaker 3 (32:52)
Which is good for me. I'm here if they're in that burnout or if they're in that injury right now. It's not over. It's not over.

(33:00)
No.

Speaker 1 (33:02)
At least with me, it definitely informed the other like, I really was like, oh, you know, I'm doing this because I need to basically, I need to condition my arm again so that it can draw again. And it's easier to just pick up a pad of paper than to turn my computer on, load up the program. Because in those days, I didn't even bother turning on my computer because I'm like, well, I can use ZBrush for 15 minutes, so why even do it? But it was way easier for me to be like, oh, I can do, like, 15 minutes of animal studies, and that makes me feel good. So that's how it kind of happened. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:40)
It's a big thing for me is pickup cost. So I used to have my own office room. I worked contract in freelance for about eight years with just a couple of breaks where I was working remotely just for a bunch of freelance clients, which definitely had its downsides because the hustle just gets exhausting. I moved out to Washington and I moved in with my partner. And because of the way that the house is set up, I didn't really have my own space for any of that kind of stuff. And to do any sort of art, I would have to basically rearrange my desk every single time, pull out all of my stuff kind of jockey for space and then put it all away at the end so that I could use my desk again. And I've actually spent the last month, a little over a month, renovating our garage from heating up drywall, having installation put in, and to turn half of a two car garage into a combination office and studio. And I'm still working on one of my things I have to do tonight is to go get one of my work tables put in order, because right now it's just literally piled with stuff.

Speaker 2 (34:59)
But I'm already seeing that all of my stuff is out, so I can go grab a canvas and do something or last night, I just grabbed a bunch of alcohol markers and a book that I wanted to do some studies from, and I went and sat on the couch while my partner played Elden Reign. And it was just like, this is a very different mindset because I can just do the thing. I don't have to pay so many spoons and so much cost just to pick up a piece of art and start working on it.

Speaker 3 (35:32)
The entry fee.

Speaker 1 (35:37)
Yeah. That's one of my biggest things is, I don't know, wanting to even get my own place when you're of the age and you're like, Man, I really need to move out. My parents were like, if you're going to do any art, it has to be completely and utterly cleaned between each session. And I was like. And I was like, cool. But I need two days to make this. And they're, like, completely cleaned. And I was like, okay, it's your house. I have to go. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:10)
And for me, there's something really helpful. I'm just sitting here, and as I'm looking around my office, I see these books. Like, I have Sketching From the Imagination, and I have Yo Losses, Forgotten Gods. And I have pieces of art that I've done and bits of stuff for minis painting. And there's something about being in that space where you're surrounded by all of these things that are almost seducing. You like, hey, this is really pretty. I want to go work on this, or I've done this thing, and it turned out kind of awesome. And I did this, like, ten years ago. I want to go do something like that again. And just having that constant reminder that you can do things, but also that there's so much beautiful stuff that I want to incorporate into what I can do is really inspiring for me.

Speaker 1 (37:02)
Was there anything else that you wanted to say for any tips for overcoming selfdoubt burnout or anything like that?

Speaker 2 (37:11)
I think one of the big things that I didn't really touch on was I worked retail for a few years, and then I switched to working for myself, and there are a lot of things about it, but it was really awesome. Like, I have gotten to do some of the strangest things, like standing in the Finnish embassy and talking to the ambassador about cultural tourism. Like, I've gotten to do some really, really cool stuff that I would not have gotten to do if I hadn't been hustling and constantly working for myself. But at the same time, I burned out so hard because I was so tired. Everything came with a cost benefit analysis. Can I do this thing? Is it going to pay enough to be worth it? Can I take an evening off? Can I take half an hour to do a project I want to do? And all of that really took away a lot of the joy of it and made it very stressful. So a few years ago, I got into corporate and I became a tech writer. And when I first started.

Speaker 1 (38:15)
I was like, oh.

Speaker 2 (38:16)
God, am I making a terrible decision here? And it's turned out to be one of the really big elements of why I think the art is coming back to me, because I can just do what I want to do, whether it pays or not. I have a couple of projects that I'm working on. They'll probably never make money, and that's fine. I can do things because I love them again. And in a lot of the creative world, there's this sense of like, oh, sibling out is bad, getting money is bad. Having a day job is bad. Everyone should have this ideal of working at full passion. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, it's okay if you work a day job and you just do art when you want to, or if you can only do it a little bit of the time, like you're not a failure because you're not doing it full time. If you really want to do it full time, talk to people who have done it and have been there. It works for some people. It doesn't work for others. It might work for me again in the future, but right now, having health insurance and being able to take a day off is so good for me.

Speaker 2 (39:27)
And making really good money means I could buy more art supplies, which is, let's be honest, watercolors are expensive.

Speaker 3 (39:37)
They are.

Speaker 1 (39:40)
It's true. That's super important, too. What you just mentioned is it can work for some people, and it can't because sometimes people say like, well, how can I do what you do? Like, me? Like, what I do? And I was just like, okay, you have to be pretty much switched on all the time. And then they're like, well, I can't give that. And I'm like, well, then you kind of can't do what I do. But that doesn't mean that you can't do the thing that is meant for you. Right?

Speaker 3 (40:10)
There are multiple paths and roads to success. I mean, even just talking the other day to, oh, my gosh, everyone's melting all together in my head. Who's the artist that we talked to oh, my gosh. My brain helped me. Sarah the one that has the day job. Oh, Doug, thank you. I was like, Bob no, he was talking about, like, he's got his day job. His day job is his bread and butter. And he makes great money making art, too. So it's like for him, it's still a playground. And that's like, gosh, did you see the new video from Brandon Sanderson today? Probably not. Or yesterday, because I heard it follow his stuff. His whole thing was like, I was working so hard. I was traveling, I was doing all these events. I was doing all this stuff. Then the pandemic happened and I couldn't like a third of my responsibilities disappeared. So I wrote five novels.

Speaker 2 (41:13)
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:14)
You know, like, he got to go back to his playground. He was meeting his regular deadlines, and he had all this extra time, and he just got to mess around with the crap that had been bouncing around in his head that he hadn't let out because he had responsibilities and he wrote five extra novels.

Speaker 2 (41:35)
He is fairly productive.

Speaker 3 (41:38)
He really is terrifyingly productive on his rough years. Such a joy as a human being. But if someone like him, who we all look at and say, damn, man, you are just cranking out this high quality stuff. If he feels constricted and time crunched and not able to do his creative outlets and get back to what he's passionate about, like, thank God the rest of us have those moments of peace.

Speaker 2 (42:16)
That's a big element of it is that a lot of people seem to think that creative business is only the creative part of it. It's like, no, there's a big business aspect. One of my soapboxes for years has been we need to teach artists how to do business. We need to teach them how to do their taxes. One of the things I love seeing, Sarah, is you talking about, like, okay, I am going to do X contacts of people. I am going to reach out to these people that I want to work with. I am going to try new contact. But that's exhausting. It takes so much of a mental space that is not creative sometimes. And you have to work all of that into your like, I want to do this full time. Ok. Here's the 80% of your time that you're going to spend doing all of this stuff that you may not have thought of or realized you have to do.

Speaker 1 (43:14)
I just end up working longer days a lot of the time. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:19)
Now, see, I've gotten to the point, bless this universe where I can start outsourcing the things I don't want to say.

Speaker 1 (43:28)
That's really nice.

Speaker 3 (43:31)
I'm hiring a bookkeeper. I've got a social media manager. Thank you, Sarah. That's like the other end of it, right? Is that you're in the grind for so long. You do it all yourself when and if you finally get to that point where you're like, okay, now I've got some wiggle room. Oh, gosh, it's the best, the best feeling.

Speaker 2 (43:58)
I need to do some of that. This year. I'm going to have someone else do my taxes, but I need to find someone that I can have, do some more, like Etsy or selling type stuff for me, because that is not a thing I do well.

Speaker 3 (44:12)
Yeah. I've got somebody that helps me schedule stuff on DeviantArt. It's mindless, repetitive things that I can pay a friend to do for me, and it gets done, and then I don't have to worry about it. And at the point, I'm spending an awful lot of the money that I'm making fun of. It back to my other creative friends and using it. It's a really good feeling because now I'm getting back to just focusing on the art and the creative stuff, and it definitely feels good. Right.

Speaker 1 (44:55)
Because you have staff.

Speaker 3 (44:56)
I get to talk about my people.

Speaker 1 (44:58)
Yeah, let me talk to my people.

Speaker 2 (45:03)
I think the only other thing that I wanted to add to that was that even if you have been doing it for yourself for a while and for whatever reason, you end up going back to having a day job or doing something that isn't exciting but that pays your bills. That's fine, too. Even if you just need a break, it's not failing. It's not that you didn't succeed. This at thing, life is weird and complex, and money is hard to get and deal with. If it will make you happy, if it will help you live a better life, do what is good for you, not what you think you need to do to be successful.

Speaker 1 (45:42)
Oh, my God. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:43)
I feel like almost everyone we talked to has said basically the same thing. And it was like, if you're doing the thing and you're not enjoying it, it's going to be really hard to win.

Speaker 1 (45:57)
And like, we all need different. Like, we can define our wins differently. And it's a very personal thing, and we all need different things, too. For me, I live with like, we have three adults that are paying one mortgage. So if I have a bad week, the other two people basically cover for me, and it goes around the marriage go around. If someone else has a bad week, we help them. There are some people who are completely doing it 100% on their own, and they're like, why am I having such a hard time? And it's like, well, you can't compare yourself to me. I have two other people helping me. So maybe you do have to have a day job or whatever.

Speaker 2 (46:45)
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:46)
If your day job is your secondary income or your primary income or your buffer or whatever it is, there's no shame in that. I think our artists get very wrapped up in thinking that they're not successful if they're not independent, and there's just so many roads to success.

Speaker 2 (47:10)
Is not a thing to expect.

Speaker 3 (47:11)
No, it's really not ideal.

Speaker 2 (47:17)
It's not romantic.

Speaker 1 (47:18)
No, I'd rather have food and heat and fun too. It's nice to be able to go get a beer or go to see a movie. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:32)
Okay. I have to see if I can take a half an hour off to go do this thing or to have to count that carefully all of the cost benefit analysis being able to do it.

Speaker 1 (47:47)
Definitely.

Speaker 3 (47:49)
All right.

Speaker 1 (47:49)
Well, I think that was everything that you had to go over, right?

Speaker 3 (47:56)
I think so.

Speaker 1 (47:57)
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I think this talk was awesome. Hopefully it'll make people feel like a lot better if they're going through some tough times.

Speaker 3 (48:10)
Keep swimming.

Speaker 1 (48:11)
Yeah, just keep going and also your win is defined by you big time. But yeah, so thank you so much, James for joining us and we will have more content on the first and 15th of every month and I hope you make good art today.

Speaker 3 (48:25)
Alright.

Speaker 1 (48:26)
Bye bye, everyone. Bye.

❤️
Sarah, Sarah, and Jaym


Discussed by Sarah Dahlinger, Sarah Forde, Jaym Gates